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re: core-js sadness,

Does FOSS need a non-commercial license?

R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:

@cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot

I remember hearing rms say that he paid the rent for several years by selling tapes of EMACS to people by mail.

With all FOSS projects being online, that's no longer a possibility.

I know it wouldn't be truly Free, but I'm wondering if something like CC BY-NC would be beneficial, or if people just need to be better at marketing themselves.

@RL_Dane @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot

As the COMM major my tendency is to lean toward being good at marketing yourself. ;)

Here's the thing about licensing: for someone starting out in a field like writing or coding freelance, the concern is less that people will pirate your work or make it proprietary and more that they'll never run into it at all because your license was restrictive and people weren't sharing it.
...

@RL_Dane @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot
...
My personal tendency is to lean toward putting things out there for free with permissive licenses to get yourself known, then to try and make some money off of your newfound popularity, perhaps by selling a service like hosting for a FOSS project you made.

@benjaminhollon Ah, “I’m giving you exposure and that’s more valuable then money” line.

Don’t do anything for free, if you want to make a career out of whatever. If your work is valuable to someone, make them pay.

That mindset is a problem with FOSS. It’s disingenuous. “I’m going to get people hooked, and start charging” is a very cynical attitude.

People who want to opt out of capitalism should have the option to opt out.

@RL_Dane @cobra @alcinnz @dheadshot

@jollyrogue @RL_Dane @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot

I agree with the sentiment of not doing anything for free that you hope to make a living off of it, but I do think that Writing is a slight exception. I just have to be careful about *what* I make available for free.

@benjaminhollon There are shades to everything. Writing press releases for your local ASPCA for free is different then a very successful bakery.

Writing about hobbies because you like them is a different category.

People can do things because they like doing them.

@RL_Dane @cobra @alcinnz @dheadshot

@benjaminhollon @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot

That makes sense, I submitted an issue to a project because they were using a fairly not-well-thought-out custom license. They listened and changed it to MIT, iirc.

But that was my reasoning: you're hurting adoption by not using a recognizable license.

What about a non-commercial-above-100-employees license? ;)

@RL_Dane @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot
I still wouldn't use it for a business on the off-chance that my business would grow with a central dependency that I now can't use under the license I had.

Honestly I don't know that I'd use anything for a business of mine that had any terms restricting whether you can profit off of it. I respect that license, but if you don't want me making money, I won't use it for endeavours aimed at me making money.

@benjaminhollon @RL_Dane @cobra @alcinnz @dheadshot And here comes the funding option of selling GPL exceptions.

@lispi314

Can it really have exceptions, though?

@benjaminhollon

@RL_Dane @benjaminhollon The copyright owner can do that, yes.

gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#

The typically means either CLAs (which are often abusive so no one's interested in contributing) or simply a project that's purposely developed by single person or team in cathedral development style.

www.gnu.orgFrequently Asked Questions about the GNU Licenses - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation

@benjaminhollon

Being good at marketing yourself without being good at *delivering* something customers are willing to pay for is not a path to success.

@AlgoCompSynth
Heh, well a look at my website will tell you I definitely have myriad things I make. ;)

benjaminhollon.com

But I agree, unless you want to be a marketer, in which case congratulations.

benjaminhollon.comBenjamin HollonHey, how’s it going? I’m Benjamin, and I do a lot.

@benjaminhollon License really doesn’t matter. People aside from lawyers don’t look at licenses. They use it, share it, and move on with their day. Restrictive, permissive it doesn’t matter. Which is why a non-commercial license wouldn’t affect anyone.

Unless it’s a unicorn project like curl, which is very rare, people are probably going to get hired to work on something else. Most likely proprietary.

@RL_Dane @cobra @alcinnz @dheadshot

@jollyrogue @benjaminhollon @RL_Dane @cobra @dheadshot Some people get awefully opinionated about licensing, but while I have a preference for (A)GPL I'd rather not fixate on them.

There's numerous other factors which don't get the attention they deserve!

@RL_Dane The ability to pay the rent by selling tapes, was entirely compatible with software freedom; no one else was restricted in selling copies the same way for any fee or no fee.

The reason RMS was able to pay the rent by charging a fee for that service, is that some people *still wanted* that service and freely chose to pay him to do it.

So today's equivalent is: find something that people are free to do themselves, but *want to* pay someone else for; and offer that service for a fee.

@bignose

You're right, of course, but I think finding that service is very challenging. Many FOSS projects like Firefox and Docker are always trying to find new avenue streams without a great deal of luck.

Yeah, that's very true @RL_Dane.

It points not to the need to find ways to bring in more money

but to the need for dismantling of concentrated monopoly power, so people don't *need* so much money just to run a socially beneficial project.

@RL_Dane I don't know about Docker, but Firefox directly competes with two giant, well-capitalized businesses - Microsoft and Google. If you can't be number one or a strong number two, you need to have an exit plan.

@RL_Dane In other words: artificial monopoly restriction is not compatible with (so, "non-commercial" restriction is non-free.)

To preserve people's , vendors need to *actually provide value* in addition to what people could freely do themselves, and charge whatever people will freely pay for that.

@bignose I used to work for an “open source” company which took advantage of that. Their product was full of GPL licenses, and the way to get the source code was to write them to get a copy.

It followed the letter and intent of the GPL, but it’s not what we would think of as an open source product today. Today, we expect a git repo online 24/7. OpenBSD used to rib other projects about not having an online repo. Expectations change.

It was also tapes, which degrade with use.

@RL_Dane

@n8chz

No argument here.

Unfortunately, I see the majority of humanity slipping either into a kind of digital neo-serfdom, or a kind of bare subsistence proletariat socialism in the next thirty years.

I've already seen the working class obliterated and turned into wage-per-minute slaves in my lifetime.

The gig economy is such a devilish thing.

@cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz @dheadshot

@n8chz
This. We shouldn't have to market ourselves - play up our strengths, down our weaknesses, or just straight up lie - to survive. The whole job-searching thing, for instance, is messed up.
@RL_Dane @cobra @alcinnz

@dheadshot

Have you ever worked for an employer that made you justify your existence at every review?

Such a charming process.

@n8chz @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz

@RL_Dane @dheadshot @n8chz @cobra @alcinnz

I mean, I literally had an employer that said that to me outright -- basically that they didn't see a place for me in the organization unless I could come up with a justification. And I had to keep doing that over and over.

@PastaThief @dheadshot @n8chz @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz

Oh, that's the worst. I hope you found an acceptable exit. :D

@dheadshot

I worked for a place I like to call Heuristic Algorithmic Laboratories.

Every year you had to read a ridiculous purpose statement that was full of mindless corporatetalk and write a response showing how your work contributed to their glorious directives.

It was infuriating to me. When they bought a Unix vendor I like to call BlueSocks, I knew things were going to go to crap, all the chest-swelling apologia on Fedi notwithstanding.

@n8chz @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz

@dheadshot

Capitalism doth make harlots of us all.

@n8chz @cobra@fedi.vern.cc @alcinnz