My theory about black holes :)

Shut’up. I know, ‘am no physicist. And no scientist for that matter. That’s fine. I just had an idea and is likely to be wrong but it makes my brain giggle with curiosity.

Read the post. I just solved the black holes and dark matter mystery. hahaha #tromlive

www.tiotrom.com/2021/11/my-the…
My theory about black holes :)

@tio
AFAIK, the mass of a black hole is concentrated on a point called the singularity, this is the reason for its extreme gravitational pull. So for black holes to behave the way it does, it needs a singularity. Are you suggesting that this singularity is made of dark matter ?

How does this dark matter singularity become that foggy patches shown in the NASA Hubble map ? To me, this doesn't seem to solve dark matter but just complicates things even more, lol 😂

@futureisfoss idk what you talk about with that singularity :D - any source?
@futureisfoss Ah you mean "At the center of a black hole, as described by general relativity, may lie a gravitational singularity, a region where the spacetime curvature becomes infinite.". that's just a "may". :) So may-be they are wrong, or maybe the describe it weirdly. Or maybe it is but us still made out of dark matter :). Why is my theory making things more confusing if at the center of a black ball is such an immense gravitational pull that they call it a "singularity" point? :)

@tio
AFAIK, general theory of relatively is proven. I don't know if singularity makes space-time curvature infinitive, that's kinda confusing because infinity a theoretical. For example, we consider sun's rays as parallel even though its not at an infinite distance from earth, so the context matters.

@tio
Because I don't know the mathematics behind all this, I'm not sure which infinity they meant. Its possible that they meant the true theoretical infinity. I've heard the quote "black holes are where god divided by zero", so there's definitely some weird mathematics going on. I think Hawking radiation disproved that statement, IDK 🤔. Its been a while since I last heard about black holes, haha. Anyway, these things are weird AF, they're too dense for us to grasp ;)

@futureisfoss Yup they are weird and real. That's mind blowing!

@tio
> Why is my theory making things more confusing

Singularity is more like a point, so calling it a "ball" is kinda misleading. Also, there's a lot of unknowns about dark matter, you're just making a lot of assumptions here, that stars convert matter to dark matter when they explode, that black holes convert matter to dark matter when it swallows something, etc. There's no need to make it this complicated when you can explain everything using a singularity made of normal matter, not dark.

@futureisfoss But singularity is weird and still just an assumption isn't it? What is a point? Black holes do have a shape and size and mass isn't it? Stars have those properties too, and in the center of a star is a lot of pressure. You can call that center a point.

I did make some assumptions is correct but won't say a lot of them. I assumed that black holes are made out of dark matter, something that it is actually studied and theorized. I mean the relationship between dark matter and black holes. The other assumption was that matter can transform into dark matter, something that @tychosoft sent a paper about which seems to suggest such a theory :P.

@tio
> But singularity is weird and still just an assumption isn't it? What is a point?

I don't know man, they're just super weird. I think the singularity idea was proposed because its gravitational pull is so strong that it pulls light and swallows it, I don't think a star can do that.

My understanding about black holes are pretty basic & I haven't read any of these proposed theories. I think the singularity idea & the general theory of relativity are more widely accepted, IDK.
@tychosoft

@futureisfoss @tychosoft Yah ofc they are weird, I just entertained an idea I had. It is a fun discussion. But to have answers you need to do science, and that I cannot :D . I love these mysteries.

@tio
Yeah, its fun to think about stuff like this, I used to do that all the time. But without doing the actuall science, all we do is kinda like a philosophical pondering of the endless possibilities, its still fun though 🙂
@tychosoft

@futureisfoss @tychosoft oh no not the word "philosophical" hahaah. We are just curious. :D thats all.

@tio
Does the word philosophy confuse you ? Haha, I'm just curious 😄
@tychosoft

@futureisfoss @tychosoft It is very much associated with the field "philosophy". Which I hate since it is a lot of bla bla bla. You can't murder every interesting conversation by calling it philosophy haha. It is simply an interesting conversation. I don't want to talk about reason, and logic, and nonsense concepts :D - i am just allergic to that word.

@tio
We try to categorize things into different topics. This is sometimes helpful, like if someone said they're interested in physics and someone else is interested in chemistry, we'll have a rough idea of what they mean. But often times we can't really categorize everything into one or the other. Like asking if a hyena is a dog or a cat ? We invented these words like cat & dog, they're not real.
@tychosoft

@tio @tychosoft
I don't know if it should be called philosophy, but there should be a word for things that cannot be disproved, but can't really be proved either. There are people who argue that free will is an illusion, and some others say we might be living in a simulation. There's no way to disprove these theories, we can only just ponder about them.

@tio @tychosoft
"Problem of other minds" is a perfect example of this, since there's no way to prove/disprove it. This is similar to the question "Is your red the same as my red?", Vsauce did a video about this problem - youtube.com/watch?v=evQsOFQju0

You're right, these might be a bit "bla bla bla", its still quite interesting to think about. They really show us our limitations, we can't know the answer to everything.

@futureisfoss @tychosoft Yes but philosophy means very much nothing of essence. And we talk about categorizing not animals and such, but discussions, which is even more abstract. It is great to think and come up with ideas about whatever you like, but to make a "category" out of these is too much for my personal comfort. I do not think it helps :P .

@tio
Yeah, maybe trying to categorize discussions is not that great. There are times where these could be useful, like the example of physics & chemistry, but it doesn't mean anything other than a rough idea of what we're talking about.

I don't know if there's any reason to be against the field of philosophy, that Vsause video I sent you earlier is pretty philosophical, but I can't say I never learned anything from it :)
@tychosoft

@futureisfoss @tychosoft Well I had several discussions with people who studied "philosophy" and they all ended up very badly with them bla bla blaing so much that even they got confused. Maybe my distaste comes form there.

@tio
I've never talked with anyone who've studied philosophy, so I don't know. Because a lot of these are just speculations, I assume a lot of shitty theories might've ended up in this field, haha. But if you talk talk to the right person, I think every field can be interesting ;)
@tychosoft

@futureisfoss @tychosoft idk...philosophy to me, from what I've read about it, is a confusing and bla bla bla field. But I am sure there are interesting aspects of it.
@futureisfoss To me makes more sense than a "hole" in the universe :D. wtf is a hole haha. Things "get in" but where do they go? These "holes" radiate and have a mass....they have other objects orbiting around them....they can collide with other "holes" and create bigger holes. Seems more weird to me than these are just another type of star, a black star with a gravitational pull so huge that even light can't escape.

@tio
Its not actually a hole, you know that right. It just pulls everything in to the singularity, that's just an extremely powerful gravity. And for where does this matter go, there are theories saying its like wormhole, so it spews everything it swallows somewhere else. There's also Hawking radiation, which is more widely accepted I think. It solves this information paradox, because it shows that black holes radiate away.

@futureisfoss Well they call it a hole...I know is not like a normal hole. But as far as I understand it doesn't spew what it swallows somewhere else since you can see it growing and account for the stuff it swallows. The Hawking radiation is simply a proof that they also lose "stuff". Stuff gets out. And probably that's normal matter since we can "see" it.

"It just pulls everything in to the singularity" - so you're saying it pulls stuff into that "point"? Then why are these black holes bigger, smaller, have a shape, a mass? I don't get it :D

@tio
"It just pulls everything in to the singularity" - so you're saying it pulls stuff into that "point"? Then why are these black holes bigger, smaller, have a shape, a mass?

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, what they mean by the size is the event horizon. The event horizon is a boundary inside which light can no longer escape. So intuitively, this event horizon should expand when the mass increases because gravity increases with mass.

@futureisfoss hmm isnt the event horizon the boundary between that dark circle (what i call as the black ball) and the visible matter? Something like this_

And the entire black disk is that "singularity"? Maybe I am confused....

@tio
This video explains it very well - youtube.com/watch?v=QqsLTNkzva

Its really interesting cause there's a lot we don't know about black holes, maybe the truth is even more weirder than our theories, haha.

@futureisfoss Yup very good video. Explains very well. However considering that it is is difficult to understand these monsters even my theory may end up being correct haha. In the end doesn't matter at all, what matters is that these exist and are mind blowing.

@tio
Yeah, like I said, the reality might be even more crazier that both of our theories, lol 😂

@futureisfoss It very likely is!

@tio
BTW, from what I know about black holes, they don't have a shape. I've heard about spinning black holes, but never a cube/pyramid shaped one 😁

@futureisfoss Well we can't observer them, remember!? But we can observe the outer side of them when they have lunch, and we for sure see a disk-like shape. Which can, in fact be spherical.

@tio
Oh yeah, the singularity might be of any shape, we don't really know much about the inside, everything after the event horizon is just black

Most black holes I've seen in pictures and stuff have a spherical event horizon, and I think the disk you're mentioning is things orbiting these black holes that glow because of their heat, that video explained it. If the event horizon is spherical, the stuff inside should be spherical too right ? I don't know enough about gravitational fields to know

@futureisfoss

Oh yeah, the singularity might be of any shape, we don't really know much about the inside, everything after the event horizon is just black

Could also be that there is no such thing as singularity...

If the event horizon is spherical, the stuff inside should be spherical too right ?

Sounds right to me but how can we know :D. If I think about my black ball theory then yes haha.

@tio
> Could also be that there is no such thing as singularity...

Could be, but the mass of the black hole still has to exist somewhere inside the event horizon. The idea of a singularity is probably used to explain the extreme gravitational pull, maybe it'll have less space-time curvature if the mass is spread around VS on a densely packed point. So more space-time curvature means more gravity. I'm still not sure how scientifically proven this singularity thing is, this is my understanding.

@futureisfoss Isn't a star that's 1km in diameter and has 1 tonne mass, having the same gravitational pull of a star that's 10km in size and still 1 tonne?

@tio
Yeah you're right, the gravitational pull will only differ with mass and distance, I was thinking of the spacetime curvature analogy.

@tio
But if you think about it, size does make a difference. If you're falling into a 10km size star with 1 tonne mass, you'll experience the same gravitational pull as a 1km size star with the same mass. But remember, gravity increases when distance between you and the star reduces, so you'll keep on accelerating as you move closer to the star. So on a 10km size star, the closest you can get to it is 5km (its radius). But on a 1km size star, you can go up to 0.5km where gravity is stronger 🙂

@futureisfoss I think this video explains it well www.khanacademy.org/science/co… - if am object is much smaller but has the same mass, then an object can get closer so the gravity is much stronger. But now we know that even the black ball, what they call as event horizon , is much smaller than a star. So it is already insanely dense and small. Like crushing multiple stars in a few km round object. Now what they are saying from what I understand from you, is that this mass of a black hole is not that black disk we observe, but a tiny point in the middle. This sounds very insane haha. Might be true tho, but insane. My black ball theory sounds less insane in that regard :D

@tio
That video is talking about the same thing I said earlier. So its confirmed, dense objects have higher gravity 🙂

> this mass of a black hole is not that black disk we observe, but a tiny point in the middle.

Of course, the event horizon is not a physical boundary like the boundary of a ball, its a point after which light can no longer escape from the gravity of the black hole. And gravitational field is always much larger than the size of the object, think about sun pulling on earth.

@futureisfoss

Of course, the event horizon is not a physical boundary like the boundary of a ball, its a point after which light can no longer escape from the gravity of the black hole.

At least thats what they theorize ;)

And gravitational field is always much larger than the size of the object, think about sun pulling on earth.

Same for a black hole, it extends far more than that dark disk (ball).

@tio

> At least thats what they theorize ;)

I don't know if its just a theory, what's happening inside a black hole we can't know, but we can observe the surroundings to prove that there's extreme gravity there that even light can't escape. Remember, light only moves in a straight line, but massive objects can bend the space-time curvature to bend its path. This has been proven, I recommend you look more into general theory of relativity, its very interesting :)

@futureisfoss hahaahha no no i am familiar with that. but maybe there is a very dense ball from which light can't escape, or maybe it is made out of dark matter and we don0t know wtf that is :).

I've been thinking about this video you sent me....... And I think I get it now, I understand why they theorized singularity to be a point. This is even more stranger & weirder than I thought, haha.

@tio
That disk shape could also be something called "gravitational lensing" which happens around the event horizon. Its kinda weird TBH, crazy things start to happen when the gravitational pull is so high !

@futureisfoss Thanks for engaging I learned more things because of that. I wsn't aware that they are saying that a black hole is a black nothing but its mass is in a very dense center thats super small. I had the wrong impression that the black hole is the entire black thing. Maybe that's what made me think about it being a black ball. These two videos explain it well:

ytb.trom.tf/watch?v=poE8CuucCE…
ytb.trom.tf/embed/0sr1Xeocuuc

Although I will have to update my theory ( :)) ) it still may be wrong the way they are theorizing about it now. Maybe there's still a black ball instead of a black hole, and it is made of a different type of matter, maybe even dark matter.

You did great at explaining this, and I am very happy you have engaged in such a discussion :).

@tio
Those 2 videos are very good 👍

My confusion regarding this black balls theory is this:

1. Not even light can escape a black hole because its so dense that the gravity is in the extremes. But if it was a ball the same size (of event horizon), then it wouldn't be this dense and wouldn't have that much gravity

2. We don't even know if matter can become dark matter, let alone say that stars exploding will cause it. Its called dark matter cause we literally know nothing about it, lol 😂

@tio
Thank you for engaging as well, we could discuss these things for hours without getting bored, haha 😄

@futureisfoss

Not even light can escape a black hole because its so dense that the gravity is in the extremes. But if it was a ball the same size (of event horizon), then it wouldn't be this dense and wouldn't have that much gravity

Actually the one who first came up with this theory, a mathematician some 200 years ago, called it a dark/black star and proved mathematically you can have such a star where light can't escape it because it is so dense. And black holes are actually stars....same way a neutron star is still a star. They call it "hole" and make things confusing a lot :D.

We don't even know if matter can become dark matter, let alone say that stars exploding will cause it. Its called dark matter cause we literally know nothing about it, lol

Exactly. We don't even know if it is matter. But has similar properties with a black hole that's why they are thinking black matter can in fact be black holes. They both do not interact with light/matter so that we can't see them, and have a strong gravitational pull.

@tio

> Actually the one who first came up with this theory, a mathematician some 200 years ago, called it a dark/black star and proved mathematically you can have such a star

I didn't knew about that, interesting... 🤔
Also, keep in mind that this mathematician can be wrong, there has to be a reason we don't call it a star anymore. Einstein published general relativity in 1915, before that we didn't had a clear picture of how gravity worked.

@tio
Its possible for a star's gravity to bend light, this is actually how we proved general relativity. But a star's gravity is not strong enough that even light can't escape, if it were then it wouldn't be able to glow ;)

Also, when you call it a black ball, a dark planet comes to my mind. And I don't get how a planet can do what a black hole does. Even if your black ball was made of dark matter, the gravitational properties would be kinda the same as a normal ball.

@futureisfoss A "black hole" is a star. It is a collapsed star, same as a neutron star. So we can better call it a "dark star" or something like that. Now the properties of this dark star can be that its size are immensely small and dense, like the singularity of a black hole. Semantics. A dark star, or black ball like I call it, can be so dense that light can't even escape it. Why can't it be? Or can be that is made out of dark matter and combined with gravity it sucks in normal matter and converts it into dark matter.

A star doesn't have to glow. White dwarfs barely glow.

Take normal matter. A neutron star then the Venus planet. Both made out of normal matter. But the neutron star's gravitational pull is immense compared to the one of the planet Venus. Despite them being made out of the same matter. Why can't it be that dark matter that we observe scattered around the universe clump under tremendous pressures into a ball just like a neutron star, and have immense gravitational pull? :P

@tio
As long as we're talking about the singularity, the name we give to it doesn't matter. In my mind, I see stars as something that radiates energy, so its hard to call black holes a star. I know about hawking radiation, but its very different thing. In hawking radiation, none of the energy/matter that's released comes from the black hole itself.

From wikipedia: "A star is an astronomical object consisting of a luminous spheroid of plasma held together by its own gravity"

@futureisfoss We call it a blach "hole" because of a movie theater or something like that, which was called the "black hole". About a prison where inmates will go but never come back. Just like matter seems to go inside of these "black stars" and never come back. So the naming was quite random.

@tio
That's interesting, I didn't know that. I only have a rough idea of what black holes are, I don't know anything about its academic background 😁

Fosstodon is an English speaking Mastodon instance that is open to anyone who is interested in technology; particularly free & open source software.