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@daniel to be fair, while I agree with your other points, I'm also pretty sure (with apologies to the other client authors, who suffer from the normal lack of funding/participation, not their fault) that Conversations is the only app that supports XMPP that has a decent UI too. I think I would honestly take one client per platform that was "OK" over that.

@sam There's also Dino.

But that's pretty much it.

@daniel

@drq @daniel yah, Dino's what I use. It's probably the closest after Conversations, but the UX leaves a lot to be desired and there are lots of little UI issues (ie. don't use it for a day or two, then enable it… your entire screen will be covered with notifications and everything will lock up while all the chats flicker new messages constantly as it downloads everything said in every chat room you've ever missed). Also adding contacts and starting chats is pretty hidden, etc.

@drq @daniel not saying we're *worse* about this than Matrix (which is also slow and has some terrible client issues), just that I'd also call the general XMPP ecosystem just "ok".

@sam Depends on the use case. @daniel mentioned "team communication", and for this purpose there just isn't a good XMPP solution, in my opinion. Multi-user conference tooling is still stuck in early 2000s.

@drq @daniel oh yah, that's true, we just don't have that at all as far as I'm aware.

@sam Nah, we do. Kinda. But it's nowhere near what Matrix has to offer, let alone big teamcomm platforms like Slack.

I mean, consistent searchable group chat history? No such thing, here's 20 latest messages. Unless you have a bot or a server plugin that records it in some HTTP-accessible archive, so it's not truly native.

Integrations? Well, bots is the only framework you have, and you have to work within that. There's no external integration API.

Links to messages in message history? Forget it.

And those are only the essentials for modern teamwork.

Matrix at least *somewhat* supports those. Plus, the groupchat survives even if the origin server goes down, so that's a perk.

And don't get me wrong: I don't really like Matrix. But it's the best thing we have right now for that purpose.

@daniel

@zash As a user and integrator, I don't care about XEPs. They are paper.

That's the problem with XMPP: it produces more XEPs than it produces actual features.

Show me actual features in actual software.

@sam @daniel @guusdk

@drq @zash @sam @daniel surely Openfire isn't alone in that?!