Back

@interfluidity it's obviously an adaptive trait in the right contexts. Being vindictive is a real part of "honor culture" and if you live in, say, the 16th century Scottish Highlands being known as someone who isn't vindictive is actively dangerous since it marks you as an easy victim

@stephenjudkins as we shape our much more large-scale social context, in which some people inevitably will need to serve roles as leaders, is personal vindictiveness then a trait we should continue to reward? should we assume the trait is necessary to defend whatever good things leaders lead?

@interfluidity well I think it's a terrible trait, but probably effective in politics. It's probably always been common, but I think Trump raised its salience by fostering a culture of cruelty (where it's more effective) and by being exceptionally good at bullying and exercising dominance

@stephenjudkins Politics is something we make, it's not a given! We can remake it. I think at this point we have little choice, we have to remake it, either we reform it deliberately or it collapses into something I'd find even worse, thereby remaking itself.

(I think Trump's innovation was more on the publicness score rather than the vindictiveness per se. The Clintons were famously vindictive. Nixon of course. But pre-Trump, a public nice-guy persona seemed adaptive. No more.)

@interfluidity if the Clintons decided to fuck someone over, they'd have had a lot of tools. But I don't think it would be possible to publicly smear someone and immediately draw the wrath of tens of millions of psychos. Vindictiveness meets populism is particularly powerful.

@interfluidity conversely, I think you could say that Pelosi was vindictive in that crossing her was bad for one's career. But the kind of clinical keeping of scores necessary to whip votes seems both unavoidable, necessary to get anything done, and relatively benign in politics

@stephenjudkins right. private vindictiveness has been common, you are shunned with a smile while all your opportunities dry up. (i don’t love that either!) but Trump brought in a very public pile-on kind of vindictiveness, the thrill of “retribution” as part of the electoral appeal. and people like desantis took note.

@stephenjudkins (the necessity of pelosi style vindictiveness has been i think related to a discipline arms race within the two parties. i don’t think that’s been benign, though each party finds it necessary in the dynamic. the combination of only two parties plus strict discipline makes representation impossible. two leaderships is not enough to meaningfully represent the public.)