Should we migrate the communication platforms of our FOSS projects (e.g., Python, Django, …) to Matrix? 
The idea of avoiding the vendor lock-in is increasingly widespread 
Migrate social networks to the Fediverse, self-host your blog, regain control of your Git repository, … 
I wonder if it's time to migrate to “an open network for secure, decentralized communication” 
Answer here or share your experience 
#Matrix #VendorLockIn #Communication #Freedom
CC @matrix
@paulox Who is "we", and migrate from where? Or is this a very general question without a specific project in mind?
@fabian Thanks for your feedback. I tried to add some example of project. 
But actually it's a question for all FOSS projects. 
@paulox @matrix Yes to the general idea but I'd do a careful evaluation of where to move to. I think XMPP might be the best choice but I'm only dimly aware of the tradeoffs. The biggest technical problem with Matrix I think is moderation and what happens when you need to kick someone out of a channel (but I don't understand the issues well enough to fully explain them).
@paulox @django @matrix Most of the commentary I've read around Matrix has been complaints about how complex it is for users (including the onboarding experience), and I'm not sure there's an abundance of clients out there with good accessibility. So unless those things have been/can be solved, such a switch could be antithetical to achieving more inclusive, diverse community spaces. That's why I voted no.
@jscholes @paulox @django @matrix fwiw accessibility and usability in Matrix has improved enormously in the last year with stuff like Element X: https://element.io/blog/we-have-lift-off-element-x-call-and-server-suite-are-ready/ and https://element.io/blog/element-is-accessible-by-design/. Please don’t judge based on stale data.
@paulox @matrix I think it all depends where from. For example, Django is thriving fairly well on Discord. Moving that to Matrix would not only lose people as part of the migration, but probably deter people from joining in the first place.
Matrix is definitely getting better over time, but I still think it's got a way to go before it has the UX, ease of use and mainstream appeal of the likes of Discord (and others).
@paulox I agree that avoiding vendor lock-in by self-hosting open-source projects is a goal worth pursuing, but for all the reasons @fallenhitokiri mentioned, I am not convinced Matrix is the right tool. I would be most interested in exploring XMPP/Jabber as a potential solution.
@paulox I like the idea, but I’d be a no for Matrix, a yes for the general idea!
I’ve been running my own matrix server for private and business for 6-7 years. If I could make the call again I’d setup a Jabber server.
The UX of Element is atrocious. And new features supposedly fixing some of it is playing whack a mole across multiple GitHub issues, a new services / app.
Synapse is a resource hog and Element decided to optimise it for paying governments because “regular users don’t need it”.
@fallenhitokiri @paulox
I have a running list of now over 25 companies (small and medium) who went to Matrix/Element from Slack. AFAIK, almost everyone has moved back to Slack, or Teams. At one place, developers revolted and moved GChat. Just today morning a friend calls me
"I hate Teams. But I hate Matrix/Element more. We're deciding between Slack, Mattermost, and Zulip"
The common theme in all of these is the horrific usability of Element. The ones who moved to Mattermost or Zulip love it.
Escaping vendor lock in is definitely good. But "non-standard" communication channels for FOSS projects risk putting people off using them - it's one more thing to install/sign up for/work out how to use and it's not a problem most users want to "solve" when looking at new projects to use, when "simple" is the best option for them.
Don't really know what the solution is up to the point where some tech gets x% saturation and becomes "normal".
@paulox @matrix Yes! I mainly offer Matrix channels for my projects. The big ones sometimes get a Discord server too (well, I only have one big project 
). Avoiding vendor lock-in is a very important point to me.
Worth noting: my experience with both Matrix and Discord is terrible. I wish chat apps would have "infinite" nesting of threads like HN or Reddit. I prefer no threads over half baked ones. Not sure if just the clients are responsible or the data structures / APIs behind are too.
@pawamoy you need to check zulip if you haven't already 
@melissawm I'll check it out again, thanks! I've only spent a few minutes in one instance and felt completely lost 
but if it has infinite threads it's worth trying again 
@pawamoy not only that but you have great control of what to make private vs public, linking externally, threads can be resolved, search is good... I personally think it's worth the initial friction
@pawamoy @paulox there is a protocol proposal for it, but it’s widely implemented yet. we did it when proposing matrix for bluesky. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/kegan/msc/threading/proposals/2836-threading.md
@matrix Sorry for yesterday's harsh words. It's easy to criticize. My "terrible" experience is only with threads, and is the same in most chat apps, not just Matrix. Apart from the occasional confusion when relinking a device, the rest works well. I do appreciate Matrix and what it stands for. Thank you very much to all people involved 
@paulox I'm not sure what Matrix gives us outside, yet one more space to have an account and play keep up to connect to other spaces we are already established in.
Am I against a group of Django people creating spaces there? No
Should the DSF officially set up a space there when we already have two or more official spaces? No
Am I against exploring it? No, but historically there was a migration to Discord because the UI sucked not that many years ago.
@paulox @matrix great topic! btw https://gitter.im/ is run by Matrix. So I think a lot of people are already using Matrix without fully realizing it.
For me, the answer is "gradually" and I agree that other platforms like Zulip and Discourse are necessary to take into the picture.
Regardless, the community risks more fragmentation. But I don't think that just jumping into it and starting a Matrix server is the answer, it requires some support, facilitation and planning.
@benjaoming @matrix Thanks Benjamin. I totally agree that a plan is needed. Do you think you would be interested to participate in a future working group on this topic?
@benjaoming @paulox @matrix If we're talking about the Django community in terms of a working group, then future community platforms will be covered by the Online Working Group proposal here (https://github.com/django/dsf-working-groups/pull/23)
I would be very happy to have more of the community involved.
Although I think there is plenty we can do before moving to new platforms, but making a plan is no bad thing either.
@nanorepublica wow I really have to watch that repo for activity... so easy to do. Anyways, so great to see this take shape! @paulox is this the initiative you had in mind?
@benjaoming @nanorepublica I didn't have anything specific in mind but it seems that sharing the idea in the Fediverse seems to have been a good idea. This working group seems on topic. Do you think you could help?
It would be a long term plan. There are plenty of smaller/easier things that could be achieved first to improve the community.
That said, knowing which would be the preferred platform, if Discord ever did do something we took issue with, would be an excellent idea.
Right now, moving for the sake of moving is not high on my list.
@nanorepublica @paulox I need to stick to my commitments to the Social Media WG I wouldn't mind working a proposal for Matrix, but I could imagine it would be more timely once the Online Community WG has been established so it can align.
I think the Fediverse works incredibly well, and we could probably do more, given the capabilities of self-hosting, ActivityPub etc... feels like there's more potential buried. @anze3db is really great at showing the way with https://fedidevs.com/
@nanorepublica @paulox haha, just noticed this: By "it can align", I mean that a Matrix proposal can align itself to the new Online Community WG's inputs and agenda... not the other way around 
@paulox then my answer is "Absolutely yes, but…" not sure if Matrix is the answer for all purposes. Sometimes a forum, or a hybrid like Zulip, or the discussion/issues part of a Forge (Forgejo) may be a better solution.
But free/open, without vendor-lock-in: 
@fabian Thanks for naming Zulip and Forjeo. :)