I'm thrilled about the launch of the #SocialWebFoundation @swf.
Grassroots efforts like the #Fediverse and #ActivityPub need convening organizations led by trusted individuals from the community to thrive. Very few people match that description as well as @evanprodromou, @mallory, and @tomcoates.
I'm excited to support their work in building and growing this special #SocialWeb.
@haubles @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
The problem is this is not actually true, while the individuals are fine #NGO folks, this is a non-native mess so far https://hamishcampbell.com/corporate-presence-in-the-fediverse/
I am wondering if this will be mediated or just painted over with crossed fingers, if the second happens these people do NOT HAVE TRUST... and agen is not their individual fault, it's just a normal mess people do.
@hamishcampbell @haubles @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
The problem we are not addressing https://hamishcampbell.com/opening-a-space-to-build-alternatives-omn/ is about change and challenge, the #NGO path of the #SocialWebFoundation @swf is that this is missing, they do it on purpose to keep a seat at the table, which could be useful, but rarely turn out to be.
This can be fixed by https://hamishcampbell.com/tag/openprocess/ I understand this is a VERY UNCOMFORTABLE path for everyone, but it will work if backed up by https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=activism can we please start this conversation soon.
@hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
The beauty of this protocol is that there is space to protect the fediverse as it has been, and to do the work necessary to make sure that the inevitable entrance of commerce here is done in collaboration, not as extraction.
Sticking our heads in the sand will not make Meta go away. They are already here.
@haubles @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
This is a non answer to my points "I understand this is a VERY UNCOMFORTABLE path for everyone" the links to some articles about why and what we can do, yes these articles likely don't make much sense to some people, It's why I write them and post them to try and communicate the "sense" that is missing from this #mainstremaing path.
The #SocialWebFoundation "the #NGO path is not balanced with native, they do this on purpose to keep a seat at the table, which could be useful, but rarely turn out to be."
It's at best, naivety and mess making, at worst the lying of the last statement that worries me.
@haubles @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
"... do the work necessary to make sure that the inevitable entrance of commerce here is done in collaboration"
Please don't be offended, but that sounds incredibly borg-like?
"Sticking our heads in the sand will not make Meta go away. They are already here."
We know how to make Meta go away, we just do the same thing to them that we already did to Gab.com: defederate.
Meta has no access to my instance because I defederated them. Other instances can do exactly the same thing. It's just four clicks.
@FediThing yes they can, and if you don’t want to federate with them, that’s 100% your choice. Genuinely the thing I care about most is precisely this kind of choice - that people should be able to go to the kind of server they like, which is run and funded in a way that they feel comfortable with, and which moderates in a way they prefer. The only thing I’d say is at the moment very few people have that choice.
@FediThing my hope is that this next wave brings a lot of people into the Fediverse where once they’ve got started they can choose who they want to host them. Many will choose a large provider just like they do for email. But you’d still be able to operate a small provider and interoperate if you wanted to. Or choose a charity run instance or one run by friends. But billions of people use social right now and only a few million are on the Fediverse.
@FediThing if we want to get the next hundred million, let alone all of them into a better environment then large providers are going to be part of that one way or another. But this time, if someone starts with Twitter and someone like Elon takes it over, if they hated him they’d just be able to move themselves somewhere better, and keep all their followers and content. I think that’s a good thing.
" large providers are going to be part of that one way or another. "
No, that will just lead to the same situation we're in with Meta.
Any provider that is too large to defederate will be very soon corrupted and smaller instances will have no leverage against them.
This federation will only control instance behaviour if no single provider is too large to defederate.
But, that's how the Fediverse has always worked?
It's always been about people choosing who they want to host them, that's its entire point.
@FediThing yes. And now meta want to be one of the people that users can choose to use. And they are giving that option to all Instagram users straight out of the box.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Who cares if Meta moves people from Instagram to Threads?
Threads, Insta and Facebook are horrific platforms, Meta need to be defederated:
"As this new report documents, nine months later, such extreme anti-trans hate content remains widespread across Instagram, Facebook, and Threads. All of the posts below were reported by GLAAD via Meta’s standard reporting systems; Meta either replied that posts were not violative or simply did not take action on them."
Individual choice isn't enough, we need to be collectively blocking organisations like Meta. It's our duty as human beings to do this. When awful stuff spreads, it has fatal consequences.
Allowing hate to spread kills people, even people who don't use social media:
"Gebremichael was not political, his relative said. He was not educated, and did not engage with the hatred and misinformation that swamps Ethiopian social media. Yet his relative claimed online hate campaigns and calls for violence – particularly on Facebook – played a key role in not only his killing, but many others."
Fundamentally we agree. I want to lessen the network effect mass social media has on hate and violence. I believe mass social media, especially Meta, has perpetuated terrible harm in the world.
And, I’m not interesting in throwing up a fence with no gate, to leave 100 million plus people with no chance to learn about or move to a technology I believe could be the solution. That’s a very NIMBY attitude, no offense intended.
@FediThing @haubles @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
@FediThing @haubles @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
I wrote a rather strong reply to this, take it in good faith please.
The replies to these subjects often exemplify the #stupidindividualism problem that plagues these conversations. Instead of engaging in collective, systemic thinking, people fall back on dismissive, reactionary attitudes: “I’ll wait and see,” or “If they mess up, I’ll just ignore them.” This approach sidesteps the responsibility we have to shape the #fediverse and #openweb decentralized networks. It’s not about waiting for corporations like #Meta to make a move or some #NGO driven entity to fail, it’s about organizing from the ground up and mediating these incursions before they take deep root.
I use the hashtag #stupidindividualism as it illustrates what “ignoring” means, damage has already been done. Once corporate influence is in place, it’s far harder to reclaim grassroots paths, which is why we need collective action now, not just after bad decisions have been made. The “I’ll just ignore them if I don’t like it” mindset is dangerously passive. It’s not enough to hope the right decisions will be made by those in power while reserving judgment until it’s too late.
The fediverse was not meant to bow unquestioned to the corporate agenda or chase explosive growth at the expense of its native values. The focus should be on building a diverse, sustainable, and resilient ecosystem from the bottom up. We can’t afford to stand by, waiting for others to decide our fate, if we do, we’ll just end up entangled in the same corporate mess the openweb was originally meant to avoid. If you have any thought, the time to act on this was yesterday, not just keeping watching from the sidelines.
@witchescauldron @FediThing @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
Ok, and what are you doing to enact that vision?
The Fediverse already exists right now, it's not some hypothetical vision that needs to be enacted.
The place we're talking in right now is mostly built and run by volunteers, not corporations. We don't need Meta here, in fact we need to keep Meta out.
I’m not interested in protectionism, I’m interested in building a better world.
You're interested in building a better world by collaborating with people like this?
"Mark Zuckerberg says Holocaust deniers are making an honest mistake"
"Facebook will continue to offer a platform to Holocaust deniers, Infowars, and other publishers of hoaxes on the assumption that they are sincere in their beliefs, CEO Mark Zuckerberg said."
"Facebook recommits to providing a platform for misinformation"
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587080/mark-zuckerberg-holocaust-denial-kara-swisher-interview
Meta is vile, it is beyond redemption, it needs to be blocked at every opportunity. Collaborating with them will make a worse world.
@FediThing@chinwag.org@social.chinwag.org @witchescauldron@kolektiva.social@kolektiva.social
Hundreds of millions of people use the platforms Meta makes. I’m not interested in being friends with Meta, I’m interested in building bridges with the people who use Facebook, Instagram, and Threads, and who may not know there’s another option.
You can let people know there are other options by joining those platforms and advertising alternatives using a native account there. That's what Mastodon did when it set up a Twitter account, for example. There was no need to federate or co-operate with Twitter.
When you federate with a badly moderated instance, you are exposing your users to the hateful lies spread on that instance, and some of them may end up believing those lies. That's how radicalisation happens.
It's imperative that hate is prevented from spreading online, as it is really dangerous. (For example this: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence)
That might be a worthwhile path, but it's not native to the #openweb or the #fedivers, which are both #4opens and based on trust https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/4opens
You can block, and you should, but this is not hardcoded.
@haubles @FediThing @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
That's a good question, the answer is rather a lot https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=history if you look back this is a light touch on the 30 years of work, started on the Sinclair spectrum as part of a development team on games and applications, was one of the first wave of users of the #WWW when it arrived at the computer centre in Oxford, have been working at the core of grassroots #openweb activism for the last 20 years on meany projects that worked and meany that did not.
Ten years ago I bought a lifeboat and sailed away, but the world is round and now am back, yes it's a mess.
It's good to ask these questions sometimes.
@witchescauldron @FediThing @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
I didn’t ask what you’ve done, I asked what you’re doing.
@haubles @FediThing @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
I am talking to these people about being responsible, am not sure if they can hear anything, but it's worth a try.
In the sense of #openweb that's a good question, currently all the projects I worked on the last few years are on standby, the most relevant one to this subject would be the #OGB you can find information on this https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/openwebgovernancebody
On this subject, some of the quotes from this project are telling towards the end https://hamishcampbell.com/corporate-presence-in-the-fediverse/ very relevant for what we talk about today
In a practical senses I am fitting out a bigger lifeboat, if we keep making this mess, we really will be set adrift #climatechoas
But you mean tech, maybe I am getting to the grumpy old man stage of life, it's the next generation's job to stop making more #techshit
Shovels and composting come to mind.
@witchescauldron @haubles @FediThing @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
Keeping it short, full ack to Hamish and an advice:
I would not spend a second to speak to hypercapitalists or war criminals about this.
I told @matt and good people my concerns.
Nice and fair things will come too https://www.publicmediaalliance.org/public-broadcasters-create-public-spaces-incubator/
It is also hillarious to ask Hamish as he spoke at the _official_ ActivityPub Conf
And it is hillarious to build a foundation of US entities only as if the fediverse would not exist in Africa, Europe, Asia or Australia.
Only lol, nothing else!
And be sure that my people in Oceania would tiki and build something if the Climate Refugees would have power and more than this rusty radio.
@FediThing @haubles @hamishcampbell @swf @evanprodromou @mallory @tomcoates
What do you guys think about this thread https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/socialwebfoundation-what-do-people-think/4564/10 please reply to some of the issues, thanks. As to build trust, you do need to look outside your echo chambers.
"Evan seems to be only listening to feedback from “supporters”. And most of the supporters seem to be companies or projects hoping to get some of the promised funding."
This is non-native and leads to this:
"I’ve come to about the same point in my own thinking as to “what do we do going forward.”"
And some people end up here:
"the fediverse emerged from the primeval swamp of corporate entanglement, only later to flop onto dry land and metamorphosize into what it is now"
Yes its messy.