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#x11

8 posts8 participants1 post today
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@thomasadam @peppe Thanks for that! I totally forgot about the decorations topic, which is of course very relevant, it means even jumping through the hoop and implementing a #wayland compositor, you can only deliver part of the functionality (and almost none of the looks) of your window manager.

But even with that issue solved, I would really dislike wayland's design. Although I *do* think that most of #X11 core drawing is obsolete and useless (mostly for the missing alpha channel), I think a display server should offer drawing facilities. Replace X with something dropping lots of cruft (indexed palettes, COMPOUND_TEXT, etc), instead incorporate extensions that everyone needs these days, extend #XRender (now as part of core) to offer more drawing primitives, etc ... you could have a replacement for X11 that's worth dealing with. And window managers could still be separate clients.

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@peppe To be clear about that, I don't question the fact that #X11 is full of old cruft that's mostly useless nowadays. It became more than clear to me while implementing my #xmoji tool, which uses almost exclusively #XRender requests for rendering (an *extension* to X11, not part of the core protocol), because X core drawing requests are really designed for 1990es hardware, supporting color palettes with limited entries, but no alpha channel whatsoever. Similar goes for font support in the X11 core protocol, it's useless supporting only bitmap fonts with no antialiasing etc, so I use client-side rasterizing (with freetype) and XRender only for compositing the result. There are more silly examples, like the "Compound Text" encoding monstrosity, because the core design predates Unicode, and so on....

In a nutshell, a major rework of what the X core protocol supports would be necessary.

But then, you can *still* dislike a suggested solution. I think #wayland is taking the "simplicity" much too far, so now both compositors and clients (rendering windows) have to do the same stuff over and over again. It's a pointless exercise trying to create a wayland client without huge libraries (such as e.g. cairo for client-side rendering, better yet use a full-blown toolkit like Qt or GTK that already makes use of cairo), while this is perfectly possible for X.

Continued thread

Ok, first reaction (confirming my suspicion that #glamor causes the bug) was super quick, I'm impressed! Let's see whether anyone jumps in soon to actually analyze the root cause. 😎

JFTR, it's the bug I already probe for in #xmoji to enable a silly workaround when necessary, applying a transformation to the source picture.

#X11#Xorg#XRender

Before Wayland, there was X11, the graphical backbone of Linux for over 35 years. Originally developed at MIT in the 1980s, X11 introduced network transparency, allowing applications to run on one machine while displaying on another, a concept ahead of its time. This flexibility made it an essential part of UNIX and later, Linux desktops, powering everything from early X Window Managers to full desktop environments like Xfce, MATE, and KDE.

Despite its age and complexity, X11 remains widely used today, proving that well engineered software can stand the test of time. While Wayland aims to replace it with a modern, secure approach, X11’s legacy continues to shape how we interact with Linux desktops.

Continued thread

Bonus points if you know any magic that would give me a #virtualKeyboard that could be invoked and used with mouse on a desktop without a touchscreen.

I exhausted any options that made sense to me and I can't dig and try random stuff beyond what I can fix back, because I really can't nuke this system.

Switching to #X11 is not an option for reasons.

I would appreciate any input. ☺️

The one feature that I really miss in X-Window that Wayland doesn't implement...

Don't laugh or smirk...

"unclutter"

If the mouse stops moving it should disappear after X seconds. Otherwise the desktop has this ugly cursor just sitting there doing nothing.

With the new Wayland cursor protocols is this something that could be implemented now?

Could it already be implemented but is an oversight?

I'm not even disappointed about network transparency.

#Linux#Wayland#X11

When using GIMP, “downgrading” to X11 by using Xwayland does not only fix the splash screen having window decoration (on Wayland it weirdly has), it also makes it possible to store window positions in multi-window mode (which on Wayland does not work).

Avatar for dirk
gts.0x7be.netPost by 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬, @dirk@gts.0x7be.netI wonder why #GIMP3 does not store window positions when running in multi-window mode on #Wayland. Guess I need to extend my #labwc window rules.

Been trying out the last few days - been using for 1-2 years now - and the (eye candy) features are nice!

Now the only thing I'm missing is nice transitional fades like I had with i3+compton when I was still using :)

But I just want to stick with since it gets better with every day :)

Мне хватает для всего иксов, так на них и сижу. Ну, может быть, на 4к, hidpi не совсем всё гладко, но это пустяки, я терплю. Скорее это проблема тулкитов, окружения, а не самих иксов.

Я при этом понимаю, что иксы архаичны по своей сути. То, для чего они делались, не используется, а то, как они используются — сделано вопреки, через набор костылей.

Но вот Wayland... Меня удивляет, почему за почти 20 лет разработки он до сих пор не готов. У меня нет простого объяснения, почему он такой.

Может быть, Wayland это просто Linux на десктопе?
Ну, он такой. Другого объяснения не нужно. #X11 #wayland

Well, I really like #X11 (#Xorg) ... and my son loves #PeppaPig. Which gives me a stupid idea. I could write something called #Xchicken. Make some chicken lay some eggs with mouse clicks on some #XRender surface.

Rough roadmap:
- Draw some chicken and eggs, probably as SVG?
- Reuse code from #Xmoji, add special widget supporting some "layered canvas"
- Implement game logic
- Add sound? (Hm, gotta look into #OSS and maybe #sndio, cause #FreeBSD ... #Linux weirdness maybe later)
- ....?

I'll probably never start though 🙈