@gnuplusmatt@fosstodon.org @tuban_muzuru@ohai.social Yep.

For me tis ​​ & ​​

#FirefoxNightly #Sidebery #FirefoxSecondSidebar #Floorp12

@boo_ @AAKL @9to5Mac Hi Klara. I reckon you've made fine points & well expressed. I shall readily & entirely concede that my choice of comparison was crude & legitimately liable for criticism. Let me try though to explain what was/is in my mind, wrt all the Mozilla shenanigans & imbroglio.

First, i readily join the bands of voices criticising Mozilla over many years for apparently letting Firefox fall far behind the competition. One does not even need to consider the chromium-based competition, to be able to criticise their apparent loss of interest in FF until comparatively recent months. Even staying within the Gecko-sphere, the fact that single-Dev projects like #Floorp & #Zen have been able to create quite excellent forks in short time that far exceed the limited innovation Mozilla have done in FF for many years, should shame them. Moreover, other single-Dev projects like the fabulous #FirefoxSecondSidebar, & then also ofc the AOs #TreeStyleTab & #Sidebery, illustrate by comparison how negligent the FF Devs have been [or maybe, been allowed to be], in not natively incorporating such great innovations that elevate the UX so considerably.

Secondly, the brouhaha recently re the ToS / ToC or whatever we call it. Mozilla possibly could not have been more ham-fisted & incompetent wrt how badly they mismanaged the situation, & they deserved a lot [but far from all, IMO] of the worldwide criticism they incurred. As to the germane details themselves, fwiw i tend atm to fall on the side of the argument that they were very clumsy, but not being evil by design... & in matters like these i always ask myself the counterfactual "well ok, do i now distrust them enough to actually abandon them & thence choose to cut off my nose to spite my face by entering the actual proven evil empire of chromium-based browsers?". My answer remains NO!!!

Thirdly, the #AI problem. Lemme state upfront that i despise the entire global fetish that's erupted for #LLMs / #GenerativeAI. I loathe & despise the vast intellectual property theft perpetrated in training these things, despair at the shocking environmental implications of them, & alternatively scream & cackle at the gross human stupidity manifested by peeps all over the rock blindly accepting the hallucinated garbage produced by these monstrosities. Do i want AI in my Foxes? Nope. Would i prefer Mozilla was not apparently bent on this path? Yep. However, again i ask myself that counterfactual, which i am able to mediate with the knowledge that atm anyway, knowledgeable users are still able to actively choose not to use it, & deactivate it, in their Foxes. Is that the best way Mozilla could have done it? No, ofc not. Is it overall a scenario that i can still use to my advantage? Yes. Is it a least-worst alternative to the chromium horrors? Yep.

A Third-&-a-Half point arises. I said above "knowledgeable users are still able to actively choose not to use it". What then though for non-knowledgeable users, for the non-geeks, the "regular peeps"? Here i admit my attitude is harsh & possibly mean, & i shall accept all criticism of it. IMO the "regular peeps" do not care one jot about any of this. They often struggle to grasp that a Search Engine is not a Browser. Many do not know or care that they have a substantial browser choice, beyond whatever came on their device. They think of "Browser" & "Chrome" as being synonymous & indivisible. They have no idea that they do not in fact have to tolerate their present miserable web UX of sites drowning in ads, trackers & malware. They have no idea of the existence, much less purpose, of #uBlockOrigin. I posit that these peeps are the target market, aka shooting fish in a barrel, of the present AI fetish, who know not &/or care not about any & all the ills of AI, who are unmotivated to lift a finger to improve their online UX, & who simply desire to accept whatever slop is served to them. IMO none of the recent Mozilla noise is relevant to them, as they're either not using FF anyway, or if they are, do not care about anything behind the curtain.

So, my OP was primitive & arguably invalidly comparing apples with oranges, but i wrote it with all the above in my mind. Fwiw.

@cxxvii Amazing news in fact, only minutes ago i discovered that the coloured icon did download anyway, despite the unhelpful messages that had arisen on the site when i had tried earlier. So, now i have set it as my new "AdHoc" TabsPanel [aka, Workspace] in my #Sidebery. Thanks heaps!

@dusepo and

They both provide me with a delightful browsing experience. I do happen to trick them both up, but even in default state they're both excellent.

Tab stacks, vertical tabs, and workspaces are pretty good though a bit clunky. So far they seem capable of covering ~80% of what I used #Sidebery for. I do wish that there was a setting for multi-line titles so that custom browser css wasn't needed. Also the theming on the tab stacks could be better, depending on the theme (even the included ones) it can be a little difficult to determine what is and is not in a tab stack outside of seeing the collapse button.

@itsfoss #ImageMagick screencap: #Firefox with #Sidebery for #VerticalTabs, #IceWM with #ShadesOfGrey on #Arch #GNU+#Linux
#Apps at sight: #Geany #Zathura #Viewnior #DeltaChat #Dino #Jami #LXTerminal #PCManFM #fs
https://imagemagick.org/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/
https://ice-wm.org
https://archlinux.org/
https://www.gnu.org/
https://www.geany.org/
https://pwmt.org/projects/zathura/
https://siyanpanayotov.com/project/viewnior/
https://delta.chat/en/
https://dino.im/
https://jami.net/
https://www.lxde.org/

@fnwbr And yet, here i be, revelling in the delightful UX that is my , with all the #telemetry disabled, the #AI disabled, numerous other parameters hardened via my #userJS, with the exquisite #Sidebery & its infinitely-nestable tree-tabs & multiple #Workspaces on its LHS, & the brilliant project #FirefoxSecondSidebar with my 21 #WebPanels on its RHS. It's such a great daily browsing UX, unfazed by the last ten days of global #FUD [all the so-called nasties can be disabled, either via simple clicks in the Settings UI, or otherwise via about:config / user.js]. Herd-mentality is a ridiculous trait of humans.

#FirefoxNightly + #Mv2 #uBO + #Sidebery + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = THE best browsing & sophisticated tab management + Web Panel UX i've ever had, easily eclipsing Vivaldi, #Floorp, #ZenBrowser, Waterfox, LibreWolf... ergo =

#FirefoxNightly + #NativeVerticalTabs + #uBlockOrigin + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = Very usable already as of Feb 2025, albeit less powerful than Sidebery, ergo =

@MsDropbear42 Oh ffs, this latest experiment with #ZenBrowser has ended after only a few hours, due to yet another catastrophic failure, preceded by various annoyances:

• the dedicated Search Bar refused to show the drop-down menu of alternative search engines [works fine in and ]
• the #Stylus AO refused to respond to clicks on its various usage & management icons in its drop-down menu [works fine in and ]
• a link i opened from my Masto #Statuzer page decided to behave like i'd used #Glance [i did not], then when i converted it into a normal tab, entirely froze the Statuzer tab
• wondering if possibly restarting Zen might fix the above, i tried to do so, which then destroyed my carefully crafted Zen profile... what ensued was a UI without various standard changes i'd made [eg, the Search Bar was gone again, the native tabs bar refused to Collapse again], but worst of all, all my open tabs were gone... again

My dear old might be less pretty, less visually exciting, & might not have native split tabs, but far out it is & remains way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable than Zen. I mean, it's really a bit silly... is Alpha, is Beta, yet the former is generally rock solid reliable in the ~decade i've been using it. Otoh, all my experiments with Zen, over the past ~12-18 months, have ended in disappointment, frustration, & often also destruction.

So, yet again, i return to...

#FirefoxNightly + #Mv2 #uBO + #Sidebery + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = THE best browsing & sophisticated tab management + Web Panel UX i've ever had, easily eclipsing Vivaldi, #Floorp, #ZenBrowser, Waterfox, LibreWolf... ergo =

#FirefoxNightly + #NativeVerticalTabs + #uBlockOrigin + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = Very usable already as of Feb 2025, albeit less powerful than Sidebery, ergo =

@thelinuxEXP Hi Nick. Oh well, fwiw, i continue to trust my , but i reinforce that sense of equanimity with my long-standing disabling of all the telemetry, both via the UI Preferences check-boxes, & my discrete additions to my user.js. I do not defend Mozilla's unbelievably hamfisted binfire they created last week & subsequently, but i do til further notice accept their explanation [&, as i said, i have forced all telemetry off anyway].

11 [which i think you installed] is nearing end-of-life [but i happily ran it for over a year til a few months ago], & #Floorp 12 via recently released Beta is improving each few days but so far remains very broken & feature-incomplete.

was a very interesting option i ran for several months, but have largely lost interest in it nowadays as its development has headed off in areas of little interest to me, whilst neglecting features of importance to me.

#Tor #LibreWolf #Waterfox all fail to meet my daily usability preferences.

So til further notice, i remain happily in this mode, fwiw:

#FirefoxNightly + #Mv2 #uBO + #Sidebery + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = THE best browsing & sophisticated tab management UX i've ever had, easily eclipsing Vivaldi, #Floorp, #ZenBrowser, Waterfox, LibreWolf... ergo =

#FirefoxNightly + #NativeVerticalTabs + #uBlockOrigin + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = Very usable already as of Feb 2025, albeit less powerful than Sidebery, ergo =

Best wishes with your alternative choices, hope it all goes well for you.

@kinetix @mitten It's not for me to recommend, coz i have no way of knowing other peep's use-cases, threat models, & UX priorities. However i'll illustrate with some dot points for me... but none of this might pertain to you/others. Everyone needs to make their own decision.

• privacy & security are high priority for me
• a sophisticated browser UX is high priority for me, including high levels of customisability
• the preceding two points are clearly in collision, & when that arises, i tip towards UX over P&S, so long as P&S still remain above my acceptable minimum thresholds
• thus, all chromium browsers are off the table for me, coz... google, & Mv3, thus no more uBO... i refuse to accept that
• so it still needs to be a Gecko browser for me, meaning... original FF, or fork?
• i've tested & rejected both #Tor & #Librewolf, coz both have sacrificed too much UX for P&S
• i've extensively tested & used for several months, both #Floorp & #ZenBrowser. I was initially very thrilled by both, but the latter is now heading off in UX directions completely anathema to me, whilst the former [being atm still v11, ie, #ESR-forked] is several months overdue on release of its heralded v12 that will be rebased to FF-release version. I keenly await this.
• so for the time being, i remain happily using ...

#FirefoxNightly + #Mv2 #uBO + #Sidebery + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = THE best browsing & sophisticated tab management UX i've ever had, easily eclipsing Vivaldi, #Floorp, #ZenBrowser, Waterfox, LibreWolf... ergo =

#FirefoxNightly + #NativeVerticalTabs + #uBlockOrigin + #FirefoxSecondSidebar = Very usable already as of Feb 2025, albeit less powerful than Sidebery, ergo =

• the same positive UX + P&S combo also pertains [for me; i am NOT generalising to other peeps] for vanilla #Firefox, it's just that i like being more on the cutting edge for faster arrival of new goodies & bug fixes.
  

Fwiw.