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messenger, while operating from Switzerland, is now owned by a US holdings company. They also quietly updated their privacy policy to some very vague language. PrivacyTools.io got a response from Wire's CEO after questioning them about the news and it didn't inspire much confidence. As a result, PrivacyTools.io is no longer recommending the Wire platform on their website.

blog.privacytools.io/delisting

@unicornfarts ...while you recommend Signal,a US based Whatsapp-clone shit with funding by Whatsapp founders with servers at Amazon and Google as the top alternative.They even have a proprietary tracker at their website.How can all fucking alternative list be so stupid and ignorant?!Wire may not be perfect but at least thousand times better than THAT fucking piece of shit.

@nipos First of all, I don't recall ever endorsing Signal. Secondly, take a seat before you hurt yourself. 🤫

@unicornfarts I was referring to this page: privacytools.io/software/real- .If you are responsible for Privacytools (at least your post make me think that),then you're responsible for this page,too.It's really annoying to find that shit on every page whch complains about Wire.Wire also has some problems but not that many.

@nipos I am not affiliated with PrivacyTools.io

That being said, I have used Wire however and I liked the app. It worked very well for me. I am only bringing attention to news that may concern people who have an extreme need for privacy. protesters in oppressive regimes or whistle-blowers for example. 🙂

@unicornfarts Ok,sorry,then I got that wrong.Anyway,those people who are responsible for it should really think about the facts again...I read such negative posts about Wire so often while the same people always recommend alternatives which are even worse 🙄

@nipos @unicornfarts
The reason they desisted Wire is not because of US ownership. It's because loss of trust, since Wire wasn't opened to private customers during all these changes. If you are ok with that, feel free to use it. For me, it is still better than Signal or Kebayse or any other service

@nipos I feel like you could have made the same point with a lot less swearing. Makes you sound very angry and out of control.

@unicornfarts

@kev

@nipos is spot on. Note as well privacytools.io has little credibility. Their actions are littered with hypocrisy and they show poor judgement w.r.t #Signal. This thread is the civil & evidence-backed disclosure of what Niklas said:

github.com/privacytoolsIO/priv

#Privacytools endorses Signal despite that huge pile of evidence that Signal works against the mission of Privacytools, who conceals the #privacy abuses from their readers. It's a betrayal of public trust.

@unicornfarts

@bojkotiMalbona Nobody is talking about Signal here. We are talking about the strange and untransparent change of policy and loss of trust in regards to Wire. Please keep on topic, Thx.
@kev @nipos

@bojkotiMalbona I'm sorry, would you prefer I link you to the same information but from another source? Your personal dislike towards PrivacyTools for whatever reason doesn't change why we're having this discussion.

TechCrunch:
techcrunch.com/2019/11/13/mess

Edward Snowden:
twitter.com/Snowden/status/119
@kev @nipos

@unicornfarts
Indeed it is better to use credible sources. Thanks.

The ownership change doesn't chg much. The Switzerland claim was always bogus (servers were in Ireland running on #AWS). The metadata has always been exposed, so US ownership doesn't change that. And as far as payload security, it's always been a problem that there is no 3rd party tool (so we must trust that enough 3rd party eyes are on the Wire code).

@kev @nipos

@bojkotiMalbona Hypocrisy at it's finest. How about doing us the courtesy of sourcing your claims as well?
Actually, nevermind. I've already wasted more of my energy than you deserve.
@kev @nipos

@unicornfarts @kev @nipos

We have to assume that anything on #Amazon #AWS is already within reach of the US gov. This was a problem known since 2017:
github.com/wireapp/wire/issues

The only substantive problem with the change of #Wire ownership is that the US can order malicious #javascript be sent, which only affects users of the web UI (which should be distrusted anyway).

@bojkotiMalbona I appreciate the shift towards the topic. Thankyou!

It should be noted that while the Wire code is open source, It still doesn't mean that the code that we can scrutinize is the same that is running as the service. Which brings us back to users deciding for themselves if they want to place trust in the platform. The recent actions and responses to those actions by Wire, needs to be made available to the wider audience, which is the entire purpose of this toot.
@kev @nipos

@bojkotiMalbona Thank you so much for this link 😍 They know even more reasons why Signal is shit than I knew before.I'll use this in every discussion about that topic from now on 👍

@bojkotiMalbona

I do well see your point.

This said, I'd like to comment on this:
Did you check your #threatmodel ? Did you think about SW #usability ? It's there an universal answer for each and every person out there? Is your "truth" the same as e.g. your (grand-)parents'?
Is it the right way to go fighting a service trying @engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts - 1/5

the population) tech-oriented group of people who are willing to change their messenger (and hence losing their contents again and again) every few months?

Again: you're fully right, but you do not represent "the people" with their (deviating) needs. That's why it's very important to consider the target audience! They already exposed sensitive information to all the parties you describe. They cannot undo this. So why not accept it and make the best out of it?

Do you really think, - 2/3

that having people stick to WhatsApp because of negative news and uncertainty about e.g. Signal is better than see them switching to Signal?
Please recall the big picture and avoid eatin wasting resources in discussions about optimising the last few percent.

I'm gladly open to discussions, no proselytizations, however, please.

@engineering
@kev @nipos @unicornfarts - 3/3

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

Sorry, my app ate parts of the message:

Is it the right way to go fighting a service trying to bring (perhaps non-optimal) privacy "to the masses" because they do not follow the thoughts of a rather small (compared to the rest of the population) tech-oriented group of people who are willing to change their messenger (and hence losing their contents again and again) every few months?

@mlohr
When the threat model is #masssurveillance (not targeted attack), then it very much is a universally shared #threatmodel. It's the same dozen or so tech giants that lead #surveillancecapitalism for all of us.

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@bojkotiMalbona
But which of the many aspects you want to target? Privacy of content or meta data, hide any traces of communication at all? As you can never cover everything at once, you have to differentiate.
Any system has its drawbacks. Did you draw the analogous picture of Signal from above for your intended solutions? Did you analyse the inherent assumptions?
In the end, there's trust everywhere!
@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@mlohr
> But which of the many aspects you want to target?

Every single one of them. Feeding *anything* to the tech giants is a bad idea when the threat model is mass surveillance.

> As you can never cover everything at once, you have to differentiate.

You can easily cover everything when the players involved are not tech giants b/c mass surveillance is negligible from small federated basement operations. Scale & budget alone ensures that.

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@mlohr
> Any system has its drawbacks.

Sure, but the problem w/#Signal is the drawbacks are not inherently necessary but rather deceiptfully manufactured by Moxie @ OWS. Misinfo is part of their game, so there are substantial trust issues with OWS. As such, honesty is important & OWS should be condemned.

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@mlohr
Also note the malice & dishonesty on the part of privacytools.io. They fully knowingly & willfully make #Signal a top endorsement amid the mountain of mass surveilance users are deliberately & needlessly exposed to. The pile of dirt on Signal /shadows/ #Wire, yet privacytools.io *delists* Wire over something that's quite minimally trivial. And OWS was already US owned! Privacytools.io betrayed the public trust.

#privacy #secuirty #hypocrisy

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@bojkotiMalbona
I agree, but only partly. Your idea of federation is a very homogenous system with no local aggregation of accounts. But this is not reality! All human networks cluster locally *in real life* & they will do so in the digital world. This is inevitable. And these clusters will become the main new targets for surveillance as they cover most users. So you must always keep moving to stay ahead which most don't want to.
@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts

@mlohr @unicornfarts @nipos @kev @engineering Federating creates a framework that hinders mass surveillance. Of course it is still on the users to utilize the federation in a way that aligns w/their objectives (a flexibility that is impossible on #centralized networks).

@engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts @mlohr also note that #Signal pushes network protectionism, refusing to share or connect w/other networks & using intellectual property rights to force this.

@mlohr @unicornfarts @nipos @kev @engineering whereas #Wire is open to the idea of working with 3rd parties (unlike OWS, Wire won't sue you if you write & distribute a Wire app)

@bojkotiMalbona
> Of course it is still on the users to utilize the federation in a way that aligns w/their objectives
But this is my point: users will use this network as described by group dynamics (at larger scales). This means, they will cluster!

Again: I do not say you're absolutely wrong about Signal, but you idealise federated systems too much I think.
@unicornfarts @nipos @kev @engineering

@mlohr @bojkotiMalbona @unicornfarts @nipos @engineering please remove my name from this discussion going forward, you’re spamming my notifications and I stopped following this conversation a while ago.

@bojkotiMalbona @engineering @kev @nipos @unicornfarts
Sorry guys, an app bug ate the rest of the post.
Long story cut short: tech-geeks != population, better Signal than WhatsApp/not switching at all, follow big picture/avoid (niche) fighting within privacy advocating group, make best out of data mostly already leaked to WA, play store, etc for most users.

I mean, is it better to have a small number in perfect privacy or the masses at least at a certain level?

@mlohr
It's best to put fourth information people may need and let them decide for themselves.
@bojkotiMalbona @engineering @kev @nipos

@mlohr @unicornfarts @kev @engineering @bojkotiMalbona No,Signal is absolutely *not* better than Whatsapp.Not even a little bit.Just read this issue,it should tell you everything you need to know: github.com/privacytoolsIO/priv

@unicornfarts I wish Tox would get some more development love. Truly decentraziled, but not very convenient to use yet.

@wonderingdane @unicornfarts
p2p has some other flaws. IMO, federated services (Matrix, XMPP...) could have best from both worlds, withouth their downsides. I doub't XMPP will ever be that good, but Matrix (Riot) might be

@unicornfarts it is time to wake up. WhatsApp is in reality Signal and Signal is Open Whisper Systems. Most of so called security apps are just forks of CIA owned Facebook apps.

@unicornfarts I used to use wire, but luckily due to certain circumstances, I removed it and switched over to Matrix.

But the switch is suspicious, especially when there's no transparency about it.

@unicornfarts if they needed money, they would have charge a monthly/yearly fee to users. I would have payed...

Anyways, fuck that. Im moving to matrix.org (hoping to create my own homeserver and domain)

Riot.im seems the most featured App right now, but i like Pattle (still in development), seems promising.

@unicornfarts
Well... There were people out there who told me i should use wire instead of Signal... 🤷‍♂️

@fuyuhikodate Same here. That's part of the problem with centralized services. We have no recourse if a policy change is made that we don't agree with except to stop using said service, or fork or own version if that's a possibility.

@unicornfarts
Well my next project would be making a own Matrix Server and test it with my family ^^

@fuyuhikodate I'd be interested in hearing what you think of matrix when you've got it up and running!

@unicornfarts, privacytools admin uses macOS and thinks it's okay because "no good hardware". Are you sure that privacytools can be a somehow useful source of this kind of stuff? It does not look so.

Especially if they're promoting Signal as a solution, which is also US company and does not even open-source everything (Wire did). Signal team shutdown third-party clients, Signal team tried to sue Wire because they used protocol based on Axolotl.

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