@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

My question is indeed what is the point of money whether it is crypto or not. I know a little about bitcoin (proof-of-work: evil for climate so far) and Ethereum (algorithmic contracts, good idea as far as I understand, but still PoW).

The idea of a single source of thruth is neat, and would be useful to avoid lies or fakes in a distributed system.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

Money used to be used a means of exchange something of value for the rich that is gold. That by itself shows how dubious money seems, because gold is almost useless in practice. Nowadays, money has mostly only virtual value, because people trust the system, and the people in power somewhat trust each other and they agree through the market on exchange rates.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

Anyway, take of instance "carbon budget" of countries, it can be exchanged for money. And they that "carbon budget" can be used to produce new products.

With the money, a low carbon footprint country can bargain to buy some products.

During this exchange the low carbon footprint might have lost value because conditions of the exchanges and the dubbed added value to the products.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

It is far fetched, but to me their should be no money, hence probably no crypto-money.

A single-source of truth is helpful, but I am not convinced it is necessary, and is certainly not necessary in a fully cooperative system with no evil.

Thanks including me in the convo.

@mouloud (Preparing and structuring my answers, please give me a few minutes, will be back in a few minutes...)

@zig @theruran @emsenn


Had to type the begining of my answer on a pad due to post size ugly limitations on my mastodon instance. See the picture attached to this post.

@zig @theruran @emsenn


They have locked down our ability to change most of the architectures because they know that cyber-powers and cyber-rights models are exclusively the consequence of those architectures, and they want to impose us their own models, by forcing us to play with their architectures, protecting their models, and therefore, their political and failing economical system, in essence, capitalism. Doing so, they are preventing a crypto-anarcho-communist revolution.

@zig @theruran @emsenn


Here it is.

But in order to implement this at world scale, we obviously need alternative cyberspace architecture that offer the equivalent of blockchain functionnalities in its core, as a service, scalable to billions transactions per second.

And this cannot be clearly achieved with the current cyberspace architecture design and paradigm, not with current digital system architectural paradigm.

@zig @theruran @emsenn


In such paradigm, every citizen would have a kind of multi-wallet attached to him, beside standard wallet and bank accounts, to count those credit left for him on those hundreds of "criterias", and he would not have the possibility to "recharge" a specific line with monay. In order to buy a good or service, citizen would be obliged to have credit left on all fields, beside having the money to buy the good or service. This incentively would force citizen to @zig @theruran @emsenn

@mouloud choose carefully what they buy or consume.

Every month, those credit lines on all those criterias would be reset to the initial value.

This is just an example, but I hope you understand the logic and how it can help transitionning to a money less society in middle term.

@zig @theruran @emsenn


By the way, homomorphic cryptography would be very usefull to help create a cyberspace architecture allowing to easily handle for each citizen the multi-wallet holding those hundred "credit lines".

It's typically a functionnality that would require to be provided at cyberspace architecture level in order to be scalable. And this is not possible with the current cyberspace architecture paradigm.

Cybernetics of trust cannot be achieved with current cyberspace.

@zig @theruran @emsenn

@mouloud This kind of logic I presented you here is anarcho-communist compatible. It would lead to a money less and class less society, without fascism, just with incentive logic, but it can work only if it is incorruptible.

This is because such functionnalities, scalable, real time, can only be achieved with revolutionnary alternative cyberspace architectures, enabling such cybernetics of trust, that we advocate, as crypto-anarchist situationist, to change of

@zig @theruran @emsenn

@mouloud cyberspace architecture, and have all our digital system designed to be resilient over time, thanks to these new conception paradigm, that embrace agility and dynamism, necessary to maintain them operationnal over time, and keep them demilitarized over time too.

@zig @theruran @emsenn

@stman @zig @theruran

I agree with what you write.

Where does the code happen?


What is hard, and Theruran knows it, is how to ensure those fundamental blocks cannot be "hacked", and how to garantee they will really work as expected with no treachery possible. This is indeed what we are working on. Globaly, this is called cybernetics of trust, but it is also fulyl demilitarized as it is not hackable, there are no backdoors possible of any kind.

@zig @theruran

@stman @mouloud @zig Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed reading so far!

Yes, and about code - that is the kind of knee-jerk reaction that people have nowadays and it prevents everyone else from understanding what they are doing. Documentation of every kind is key, unlike the prevailing software engineering practices that lack rigorous conceptual design development phase. Visual documentation is also of course important, and to maximize the utility it must also be an executable architecture model.

Well - if we can theorize another way of achieving an equivalent security model and utility to Bitcoin without the energy consumption, that would be incredible. As far as I know, there is no alternative yet conceived and the energy consumption keeps the system honest. And unfortunately, no one I have met in the fediverse thus far is qualified to theorize such an alternative. There are real engineering constraints and trade-offs that are glossed over in these kinds of discussion, and I doubt that billions of transactions per second is achievable due to laws of physics. It is my expectation that such a decentralized and trustworthy cybersystem will be slower in many ways but is nevertheless fast enough for us to get real work done and not just mindlessly consume Big Media.

P.S. come to hackers.town - we got 10,000-character toots!

@theruran can be achieved when integrating this natively inti the cyberspace architecture itself. Time will tell. I'm still thinking about this and working on it, exploring possible native implementations a lot. I tend to mix DHT concept with PoW in a native mesh cyberspace architecture to do it for the moment, but I am exploring other possibilities too. Will tell if I find something promizing. @mouloud @zig

@theruran Double spending prevention functionnality offered by Blockchains can also been seen as a lack of accurate secured reliable synchronous timestamps within the current cyberspace architecture paradigm, and this critic can also be extended to current microprocessor based architectures, mostly astnchronous, and were accurate perfect timestamping mecanisms concepts and functionnalities are simply completely missing. @zig @mouloud


@stman @theruran @zig@functional.cafe @mouloud your CPU can think it has accuracy in time but doesn't matter if all the CPUs can't agree on the tone. There will always be relatively long delays propagating that timestamp no matter how perfect it is.

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@tomosaigon Either I misdescribed or you misunderstood me, but in truly fully synchronous and truly tile sensitive alternative cyberspace architecture the way I am designing them, those propagation delais are perfectly known, controled, and quantized to the global system synchronous speed. That's the advantage of such network. Then, if end-points design does the same, entirely, @theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon from the motherboard architecture up to the internal microprocessor design, and up to the kernel and OS and top level applications that would be aware of the time sensitive hardware and microprocessor it runs onto, and of the same characteristic for the alternative synchronous and time sensitive cyberspace architecture, the whole fucking meta-system being globally clocked and synchronized with a global clock @theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon and with all the propagation delays within this alternative cyberspace architecture being known and quantized synchronously to this clock, then, in such fully synchrounous global meta-system paradigm, what I say is truly relevant. I find more intrtesting to design and sexy and usefull to design such thing, than to try ugly ducktape fixes the way blockchains are currently implemented, with other complex @theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon layers on top of it like lighting network protocol to try to ducktape fix issue from the underlying ducktape issues (Bitcoin blockchain) that was itself at attempt at ducktaping the whole shit that is the current asynchronous shitty and not time sensitive cyberspace architecture, where accurate time and timestamp management are simply missing, same for all the microprocessor based systems (end-points) that @theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon connect to the current shitty and outdated cyberspace architecture paradigm we (me and theruran) have CLEARLY in mind of replacing completely because we know it is old, poor, backdoored from everywhere, generator of cyber-chaos, and globaly consists of a paradigm where we, the people, have absolutely no control over its applicable cyber-powers and cyber-rights models, and no way to enforce them if we could. @theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon We are definitely in the mindset and paradigm of designing alternative cyberspace architectures and digital computer systems to allow things that can only be dreamed with today's current digital technologies and cyberspace architecture : Cybernetics of trust.

Bitcoin as you know it being a very smart exeption that was very lucky to be able to exploit blockchains the way it did. But it's still a ducktape fix.

@theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon There are two ways to timestamp : absolute timestamps (asynchronous), which always, by nature, depend on the clock precision, and always carry an error. But there are also quantized synchronous timestamps in fully synchronous systems : In the later, timestamps are quantized, but they carry no error with this quantization of clock, and this is the implementation I prefer.

@theruran @zig @mouloud

@tomosaigon Solving double spending issue in a fully synchronous quantized time sensitive alterntive cyberspace architecture and computer systems paradigm is very easy, and can be done efficiently with many different simple algorithms.

Another reason to re-engineer everything from scratch, instead of hitting our heads on impossible to solve with ducktape fix problems because of the current shitty cyberspace architecture and computer systems paradigms.

It worth it !

@theruran @zig @mouloud

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