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I'm confused when devs claim that you can't experiment with software on the fediverse. I have spent the last 5 years of my life building experimental software on the fediverse, and people have been very supportive!
There is a MASSIVE design space for weird ideas that are not just dressed-up surveillance capitalism, but so many devs come here saying "I will try out some dressed-up surveillance capitalism" and then act like their genius design thinking is being stymied when people say "fuck off"
Yes, surveillance capitalism gives us some material things that are useful.
There are also about a billion things we have never even tried out because rich people believe there's no money in it! Maybe some of those things will also be useful and we should try those instead. Just sayin!!!!
Well, your use of Surveillance Capitalism says something. If some folks don't like a new tool or feature, they label it as Surveillance Capitalism and shame the developers rather than engaging in any kind of constructive dialogue.
It's one thing to say that a community is welcoming to developers. It's another thing to say that we're welcoming to developers, but only if they restrict themselves to ideas and features approved by a small self appointed group of gate keepers.
@stpaultim @darius Would you be willing to share examples of features that were inappropriately considered "surveillance capitalism" based purely on the fact that people "didn't like" them?
In my opinion, #Searchtodon was treated as if it was Surveillance Capitalism because it had the term "search" in it. All indications were that the developer was trying very hard to address the concerns of the community, while also providing a feature that lots of people do want.
I believe that many folks dismissed the idea as Surveillance Capitalism, without really looking at what it was or what the developer was trying to do.
@stpaultim @roadriverrail I specifically was an informal advisor on Searchtodon (having been internet friends with its creator for about a decade), and I thought it was an interesting project, and I think it was misunderstood, *and* I think it would have been better as something hosted by instance admins where people could fully defederate from servers that use it.
I agree. I was not involved and do not know the people directly involved.
I also think it was misunderstood and an opportunity was missed.
I appreciated the developers attempt and his documentation of what went wrong and how it might be improved in future atttempts.
Sure, there is a lot developers can do in the Fediverse that would be welcomed.
But, I think that the #Searchtodon incident sent an unfortunate message to developers.
@stpaultim @roadriverrail Whereas I think it sends a pretty good message: users have the power to push back on devs *hard* and you had better incorporate community-driven design processes instead of just coming up with stuff and doing it. Or as the brilliant mcc@mastodon.social said (don't want to spam her):
"Maybe programmer people need to figure out a clearer division in their heads on the difference between experimenting with software and experimenting on people"
@stpaultim @roadriverrail And btw I am not one to shy away from this: I will be implementing quote-posts in Hometown, my Mastodon fork, but I think crucially the way I am going to do it will involve a lot more community input and transparency than basically any fediverse feature to date.
This is why it has taken me years to implement it: the tech hasn't slowed me down, I needed to figure out the right process for introducing and getting feedback
@stpaultim @roadriverrail Also my plan is for the way I introduce quote posts to be a (partial, work-in-progress) template for community-driven design of fediverse features going forward.
Your original point is correct in that there is lots of place for creative development in the Fediverse and I appreciate folks like you who are doing it and doing it carefully and thoughtfully.
But, I also understand why some developers would be concerned about innovating in the Fediverse.
@stpaultim @roadriverrail That's okay. I think the pool of developers is large enough that if some are concerned and stay away, we will be just fine.
@stpaultim @darius @roadriverrail I think developers _should_ be concerned about developing on the fediverse, if being concerned means proceeding with respect and care, asking first, making potentially problematic features opt-in and not opt-out and respecting the wishes of the community.