@sotolf ok, now I know what I'm going to listen while coding today:)

@sotolf When watching interviews with death metal bands, I have the impression that those are some of the most humble and friendly people out there. In fact, most death metal fans are also very friendly, based on my experience at concerts.

I definitely don't have that impression of some of the popular mainstream stars out there.

@loke Yup same here, having been on some metal festivals and stuff the people there have always been some of the best and most accepting people I've ever met, the Inferno festival was so much fun :)

And yeah, there are loads of shady people in music, and I don't think many of them are in metal :)

@sotolf I think it's because there really isn't much money in metal, and the people who are in it do so because they love the music.

I recall seeing an interview with Dying Fetus where they were talking about one of the member leaving because he was starting a family. He explained that you can't make a lot of money in a death metal band, and you have to be willing to sacrifice a lot and be on the road all the time just to be able to survive doing that. In other words, if you don't love it, you won't be doing it.

Let's see if I can find the interview. It was a good watch. This is the one. youtube.com/watch?v=w3mzdLy2mH

@loke Yeah, and the fans tend to be kind of outcasts as well, which I think is a big reason why they are so accepting. It's just funny, I think it's also something about getting another outlet for the agressiveness as well, so you don't have to keep it in. I've heard some of the greatest stories about people in moshpits as well.

I'll make sure to watch that one when I get home :)

And for some reason I still don't stop being amused about how chill most of them are in interviews :)

@bekopharm yup, from what I remember he's quite into wow, and even got an NPC named after him as well :)

@sotolf

I mostly agree that death metal bands seem really chill, but I also have a big problem with the metal aesthetic flying cover for fascists. Like, there are a decent amount of fascist metal bands and if you just picked up one of their albums it might look exactly like a really chill death metal band's album.

Idk, I just wish the metal aesthetic was a little bit more prominently anti-fascist and wore that on its sleeve so it made it harder for fascist nazis to blend in ya know?

@sotolf

I am sure there are tons of examples of death metal bands doing exactly this and I am totally game for people to link them, metal is one of those things I havent found many in roads too yet!

@Alonealastalovedalongthe well there are many bands that are actively against fascists and Nazis, but there is only so much they can do when they imitate their style. You'll find despicable people playing any kind of music, and I've never found a group more willing to accept people than metal fans.

@sotolf

Look, I 1000% agree that metal people in general can be the coolest fucking people in the world but at the same time I don't agree that there isn't anything you can do about fascist nazis imitating your style.

You can't outright stop them, but if nazi fascists can pick up your aesthetic and just directly use it with barely any tweaking than that is absolutely a weakness of that aesthetic.

@sotolf

Like, insane clown posse isn't metal but they have a "dark, violent, satanic" aesthetic that could potentially be co-opted by fascist nazis. In a different world ICP could have a significant subset of racist, nazi fans.

However, they make songs like this that make it pretty damn cognitively dissonant to be one outwardly one of those fucks and still be part of the ICP culture.

youtu.be/gObrpLMjv78

@sotolf

Not saying there aren't shitty ICP fans, but statements like this matter. It would have been easier for ICP to "not get political" and not piss off the tons of confederate flag loving dudes who I am sure would otherwise (or maybe still uncomfortably for them) be super fucking into ICP.

However, they made that statement, drew their line and because of it you'd be hard pressed to find a safe space as a nazi fascist in any ICP fan community anywhere.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe and so? I've been at concerts where the bans where talking about how terrible 22. Juli was, how Benjamin drapet was terrible, just because they aren't talking about your countrie's problems you are saying they do nothing?

nazis, metal 

@sotolf

Again there is plenty of amazing metal and awesome people in metal. Metal is a big genre obv.

However do you honestly think metal DOESNT have a white nationalist/racist problem?

Replying "well the vast majority of most metal isn't racist" isn't an answer. This is almost always the case with any culture that has racists in it. It's got to do with how a culture does or does not allow racists to feel welcome in it and historically metal has had a unique problem with that.

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe what I said is that no respected metal band are willing to talk or play with nazi bands, but you coveniently forgot about that. Now I see you aren't up for a honest discussion but just you don't liking it doesn't make them complicit nazis.

nazis, metal 

@sotolf

For the most part yes, but I just don't see this as being true across the board. There are more than a couple high profile examples of even big metal bands saying problematic shit and not really being punished for it in their scene.

Which isn't the norm, and it isn't most. Again you both keep thinking I don't like metal. I think the fact that metal exists is fucking awesome. Its a great genre of music.

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe time to name examples if you want to be taken seriously.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe you're kidding me right? Also they are americans and will therefore cater to the american problems, while Dimmu borgir (Being played on national tv) will care about norwegian problems, orbit culture (swedish), gojira french and so on, why do you want everyone to have opinions on your countrys problems, that's some really weird entitlement to be honest.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @sotolf I don't think it is possible or desirable to "nazi-proof" everything. Even explicitly anti-fascist punk and folk aesthetics get appropriated by fascists. Restricting ourselves to forms of expression which fascists cannot imitate (which is impossible) only limits us, not them.
@Alonealastalovedalongthe @sotolf if I may pontificate a little more:

modern-day fascism and many forms of subversive media (punk, metal, memes, etc.) stem from the same underlying dissatisfactions with the current order. People are lonely, feel as if they have nothing to live for and that there is no joy in life. If we are to properly express these emotions, we are going to inevitably make things that fascists can use, because they are exactly the emotions that fascists prey on to gain followings. Instead of just *not* expressing those emotions in a way that is satisfying to us, because fascists would express those emotions in a similar way, we ought to directly oppose fascism by, for example, excluding them from music scenes, opposing their political parties materially, etc.

@mithrandir @sotolf

"I don't think it is possible or desirable to 'nazi-proof' everything. Even explicitly anti-fascist punk and folk aesthetics get appropriated by fascists. Restricting ourselves to forms of expression which fascists cannot imitate (which is impossible) only limits us, not them."

I don't really agree with this though. You can't control other people, but you can make other people look like hypocritical assholes for appropriating your aesthetic.

@mithrandir @sotolf

"modern-day fascism and many forms of subversive media (punk, metal, memes, etc.) stem from the same underlying dissatisfactions with the current order. People are lonely, feel as if they have nothing to live for and that there is no joy in life."

I 100% agree, people really are hurting. There are definitely a lot of men out there who feel extremely lost and isolated and as you say these fascist ideologies prey upon them.

@mithrandir @sotolf

Metal is fucking awesome for expressing anger, pain, and a whole host of negative emotions (as well as positive).

I disagree that expressing those emotions always creates something that can be co-opted for violence and hate though. What makes metal awesome is that the exact opposite is true.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mithrandir that's explicitly what you say it shouldn't do because it's what fascists prey on as you said?

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mithrandir I'm hurting, lost, lonely and feeling misunderstood, and somehow I still abhor nazism, it's a disgusting ideology.

Re: nazis, metal 

@sotolf @Alonealastalovedalongthe @mithrandir I’d recommend the mock-history of Backpedal as a cathartic (but probably escapist) piece of fiction on the topic of metal vs nazis.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @sotolf Well, can you? It seems to me that the nazis tend to get all the limelight in those situations. Most people associate "skinhead" directly with nazi punks, although skinheads are a much bigger group and many of them explicitly reject nazis.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe the ratio of good to evil lyrics is 1000:1, and i'm being generous with the '1' here. odds are you already run into more fascism IRL than you will in metal
@sotolf

@mohab

I think you could perhaps make the argument that mainstream country is accepting of milquetoast racism and dog whistling for "rural lifestyle" in bulk in a way that far outweighs the concentrated pockets of fascist nazi metal, but that is a low bar lol.

I am not trying to bash metal, metal is awesome, but it has a unique problem of not effectively outing fascist nazis from its aesthetic.

@sotolf

@mohab @sotolf

My point is its not hard to make it so nazis/fascists can't co-opt your aesthetic.

Center blackness in your aesthetic, center queerness, center indigenous people, center a love for disability and neuro-diverse people, center the cruelty of poverty.

Have the satanic imagery and shit but interweave that with a joy and love that can't be neatly removed without the aesthetic becoming something vastly different than it was.

@mohab @sotolf

I think it isn't all metals fault nazis/fascists are like a bedbug infestation that moves in to a community and it might not feel easy to kick them out but metal needs to unify in making these people not feel welcome in the remote slightest.

Like, insane clown posse does a good job of this from what I have seen.

mobile.twitter.com/icp/status/

@Alonealastalovedalongthe

metal bands have been actively doing this for years. there literally is a grindcore compilation album titled Grind Against Trump, Glacial Tomb have 'Anti-Nazi' printed on the cover of one of their albums, and even a super mainstream band like Black Sabbath sells BLM shirts through their official store—and all of that is just off the top of my head; i'm sure you'll find more with the help of a search engine

@sotolf

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mohab ah, so there we have the problem, you are talking about a mostly european genre and want them to care about american problems, be updated about american politics and so on. And cmparing metal to icp? What do they have to do with eachother? Not saying one is better than the other, but why are you making the comparison?

nazis, metal 

@sotolf

I am using an example from the US because that is what I know best, I really don't think I am being US centric.

I explained why I used the example of ICP elsewhere.

@mohab

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe

You're 100% being US-centric. Where I am from, if the biggest metal bands start selling pro-LGBTQ shirts today, they'll either be dead or imprisoned by the end of the week, yet you had the confidence to explicitly type 'It's not hard...' to band together and drive fascists away. There are millions of metal fans who barely speak any English, yet you seem to think it's not going to be hard to reach them. I can keep going.

@sotolf

nazis, metal 

@mohab @Alonealastalovedalongthe in addition most metal fans are not a similar group like the icp people, they are people of many nationalities coming from countries all over the world speaking tens of different languages not really having any connection or even knowing if the us has nazi problem in it's scene.

nazis, metal 

@mohab @sotolf

"'It's not hard...' to band together and drive fascists away."

not what I said, I said

"My point is its not hard to make it so nazis/fascists can't co-opt your aesthetic."

which is very different, and on my previous point

"You can't outright stop them, but if nazi fascists can pick up your aesthetic and just directly use it with barely any tweaking than that is absolutely a weakness of that aesthetic."

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe
The point is you shouldn't highlight a bunch of steps and assume they'll simply be effective elsewhere only because they're effective in your environment. Unfortunately, the world is not that simple, neither is this problem, which is what we've been trying to tell you.

@sotolf

nazis, metal 

@mohab @sotolf

I never argued the world is simple and I never argued that the rest of the world should do as the US does. That is a straw man argument.

I also never argued metal was a simple, uniform entity.

My point is that the aesthetics of metal in the past in its various sub genres have provided cover for nazis and fascists. It also isn't always overt like nsbm, that isn't what most racism is.

nazis, metal 

@mohab @sotolf

There are def people in metal fighting it, Gaylord's The Black Metal Scene Needs To Be Destroyed is one great example.

Still, I would argue it is a major problem largely unique to metal that other music genres don't have nearly as much of and that isn't because most metal people are bad, its because its aesthetics can provide cover for nazis, fascism and racism if a rejection of nazis/fascism and racism isn't explicit in communities (many of which it is).

nazis, metal 

@mohab @sotolf

I mean, are you really gonna argue that other genres of music have classically featured as many artists doing nazi salutes "ironically"??

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mohab so, time to name examples, but not in the us scene since you mean it's such a rampant problem that should be really easy.

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @sotolf @mohab > are you really gonna argue that other genres of music have classically featured as many artists doing nazi salutes "ironically"

Is that a US thing? Literally literally never heard of this happening before your comment.
The two "risk zone" bands I can think of in a Swedish context are Ultime Thule, who are far-right rock but not metal, and Sabaton who are metal, like Swedish flag imagery and glorify war, but who also sing about the bravery of the Jewish ghetto residents in the Warsaw uprising against Nazi Germany.

@clacke NSBM exists, Watain, Marduk, and that dude from Anthrax have thrown Nazi salutes before. But metal is so huge, all of that amounts to less than 1%. But @Alonealastalovedalongthe seems to think it is as small as country, less than 1%=major. Even worse: they seem to think they are smart enough to have pinpointed the issue, have the fix, no one is doing enough to apply it. Worse: they admitted they haven't found a way 'into metal' as a genre at the beginning.

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe The only hot pocket is NSBM, to which eastern Europe is the hotbed. I have no idea why people over there gravitate towards this music, and I'm not gonna make assumptions. If you're willing to do so, you're on your own. If you know of other hotbeds, and you can explain why they're growing with ecvidence, please do mention that; otherwise, just admit you don't know enough and stop arguing. @sotolf

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mohab so metal shouldn't deal with raw emotions and of being outsiders because fascists prey on it? What's left of metal then?

nazis, metal 

@sotolf @mohab

When did I say metal shouldn't deal with raw emotions?

That is your own conclusion.

nazis, metal 

@Alonealastalovedalongthe @mohab so exactly what part of metal do you want to take away then? To make it "nazi-proof" I can't tell unless you say so I have to assume.

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