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The Ultimate Battle 馃挰

@joeligj12
I'd argue XMPP is more bloat because of all the obsolete and depricated stuff that is still around.

While Matrix is way to young to have a good "base"-feature-set that they will keep around for a long time without changes.

In theory almost everyone is using XMPP, but in a proprietary-private messaging system and that was the "problem" of this whole protocol from the beginning. Starting with Google Chat, that was actually federated and just closed down with the transition to Hangouts. That was also xmpp, but not federated anymore. So the billions of xmpp users are closed down, while the federated part of the community is not even worth to mention.
I dont think matrix will become that popular for proprietarty software builders. Thats a chance. (Sadly Element is the best client and it's UX is absolutely bad. But it's still a young project, so let's wait 10 years and see)

@fabiscafe @joeligj12 Facebook chat (messenger) was also XMPP at one point, but never federated afaik.

@joeligj12 @fabiscafe there are different kinds of bloat: XMPP has obsolete and deprecated extensions while Matrix has an absolutely overengineered protocol which is extremly brittle (it's basicly an (hopefully) eventual consistent distributed and federated database. Good luck with that. You will need it).

@interru @fabiscafe @joeligj12 "Matrix is really a decentralised conversation store rather than a messaging protocol" (matrix.org)

@werwolf I wouldn't call it spyware, it's just a pain to implement, really slow, and only feature complete clients are written in Electron in which case old computers take a beating. Matrix is more intended for group chat anyway, it's also not funded by ads so I don't see privacy being a large issue here.

@person @werwolf

Eh don鈥檛 take it personal. This one whines about matrix every chance they get. Usually with such.. one liners.

Matrix > XMPP because you don鈥檛 have the schizophrenic dumpster fire of client choice and incompatibility that XMPP has so lovingly cultivated.

Pretty much every client will do the same group chat thing as any other without issue. E2EE being an exception for some clients, but many use Element or Schildichat or Nheko which all support it. So it鈥檚 less of a problem.

@wholesomedonut @person I won't elaborate myself on why matrix is spyware, but you may read this article. If I call something spyware there's a reason behind, otherwise I'd have said any other of matrix's disadvantages. hackea.org/notas/matrix.html

@satur I guess that depends on what the battle is. XMPP isn't winning any wars, sadly. Wish it did. Matrix is gaining a lot of ground.

@arielcostas @satur Really interesting link, I still feel like Matrix is better than many others and has potential, but I have to look at XMPP sooner 馃

@jimbo @satur XMPP is not inherently bad, but most of its claims of privacy, decentralization and all that is just bullshit. Element is just a poor imitation of Discord made on bloated Electron. There's no functional server alternatives to the python-bloated Synapse. And most of its users live on the matrix.org homeserver, so no real decentralization.

@arielcostas @satur I feel like the biggest dealbreaker on community built #matrix software is the complexity of the standard. (Element seems confusing too)

#xmpp seems far more simple and easier to implement, but I have to try if it has enough features I鈥檇 like to have

@jimbo @arielcostas @satur Still I prefer to use Element rather than Conversations, at least in Element you can swipe to reply a message and can jump to the quoted message etc

@jimbo @satur @arielcostas
> python-bloated
Python isn't the problem. Matrix protocol is extremly inefficient, complex and brittle and the architecture choices they did in Synapse are extremly bad for performance. For example: Using Twisted and doing _many_ queries through runInteraction. Every time you do that you will spawn a thread which you usually want to avoid in python.

That still after years there isn't another (complete) implementation should also be a sign that the protocol is to complex.

@jimbo @arielcostas @satur What you have to ask yourself is, where do you want to be? None of these platforms is going to win, they will co-exist, so pick your poison so to speak. Bridging is one (ugly) way to interconnect this mess and other walled gardens , without having to rely on a fsckload of apps. There's no point being on a platform, where you basically talk to yourself (unless that does it for ya,.,) :D

@arielcostas
Matrix isn't spyware. Original article was written in bad faith, without ever updating since 2019 and editing or fixing wrong or misleading parts pointed by devs.
@satur

@arielcostas @satur

I haven't even dug into the technical aspects but this article is full of nonsense.

It has an anti-Israeli trope which it hammers several times.

It references articles on the Internet that I can't find, several references are just mailing list opinions, with no deeper references other than employer.

The source code for the project is open and self-hostable.

Tor was started by the CIA, and yet you don't hear this kind of attack.

Why might *Israel* be a target? hmm...

@satur XMPP because it's lighter for me to self-host, plain and simple. If everything goes according to matrixs plan, I'll be swept into their "ecosystem" by bridging anyway, so the problem solves itself.

I use both, but I just don't have the resources to self-host matrix, this makes XMPP an automatic winner for my personal use-case.

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