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webhosting.coop

Heard about this hosting site from @klaatu and I finally visited their website and really like the looks of it. We'll see, but I may look I.to it further on my days off.

@poetgrant Interested in a cooperative? I bet I'll see the day you turn AnCom 😄

@klaatu

@colomar
Bahaha, yeah. I have actually really been intrigued by coops. They tend to be non aggressive and fully voluntary, which really interests me. This is my eternal internal struggle.

@klaatu

@poetgrant Yeah, coops are really cool. I mean, every FOSS community is a coop, basically, isn't it?

Even though you talk about capitalism a lot, I'm starting to have the feeling that it's the anarchist part that actually fascinates you more about AnCap than the capitalism part.
@klaatu

@colomar
For me it is more the nonaggression part. Capitalism just seems to default to nonaggression in its basic roots. It is when govt gets involved that I see capitalism getting aggression and coercive.

So basically I favor the NAP, individualism, and property rights. Everything else is just annoying in my view.

(@klaatu if you want me to take you out of my responses, please say so.)

@poetgrant What I find interesting about property rights is that most AnComs are fine with individual property, but not with private property of means of production, which makes sense to me.

As for the non-aggression: I believe that capitalists are only non-aggressive as long as the state protects their possessions. If it didn't, they'd replace police and military with even more private security than they already have in our current systems.

@klaatu

@colomar
I think you are right. I think history supports you in that too(i.e. the Pinkertons). I guess my biggest problem then is with the state. The state only exists through violence and the threat of force, therefore the state is evil by definition.

I need to research coops more. I like the idea.
(Don't worry, I'm not abandoning AnCap just yet.)
I also really enjoy every conversation I've had with you so far. I love that you don't jump to conclusions about my character.
@klaatu

@poetgrant There is nothing more refreshing and productive than discussion with someone who is not of the same opinion, but reasonable and open-minded.

Talking in an echo chamber is good for warm, fuzzy feelings, but doesn't make me think or develop. Talking to fundamentalists of the other opinion is just exhausting and nerve-wrecking.

Talking to people like you is great.

@klaatu

@colomar
Thank you! And likewise! You have given me a lot to think (and read) about, as always.

Also, I've tried being a fundamentalist before and it just drains my spirit too much. 😃😃
@klaatu

@colomar
What is the philosophy behind the co-op movement? I ducked it(hehehe) and googled it and I can't find a central philosophical ideation unifying the cooperative movements.
@klaatu

@poetgrant I don't know if coops identify strongly with a specific philosopher or school of thought.

They're quite close to Marxism in that it's the workers / consumers owning the means of production.

The authoritarian state that was/is so prevalent in communist countries wasn't really Marx' idea, anyway.
@klaatu

@colomar
Oh yes, I like the part of coops that doesn't derive their power from the state. Actually, if there was a way to make it work economically without force, I think I would love AnCom ideals... 😃😃

But my exerience in economics and economic history gives me a great deal of pause before I could ever endorse it. I do not endorse Marxism however because it requires (at its roots) force and coercion.
@klaatu

@poetgrant I fully agree with you there. It is the endorsement of violence that keeps me from being a Marxist as well.

I believe we should achieve Marx' ideals not by taking the means of production away from their owners by force, but by replacing them gradually with community-owned means of production. Which is what we're doing with things like FOSS, the maker movement or coops of all kinds.

@klaatu

@colomar
One could argue that your proposition there is a free-market one... 😉😁😁
@klaatu

@poetgrant I'm fine with free trade as long as the means of production are community-owned (so != capitalism, because capitalism is defined by privately owned means of production, and private ownership != cooperatice ownership according to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_ )

@klaatu

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