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I don't think I've seen anyone directly address this, but my instinct tells me that here on the 'verse most people think "Python is good" and "Javascript is bad".

I believe the former comes about because of Python's ubiquity and prevalence in the scientific community, and the latter to be a distaste for Javascript bloating the web, and now desktop apps with Electron).

What do you think? Feel free to discuss in this thread.

I have to say, so far the results are looking exactly like I expected. I'm trying to stay unbiased while people vote and discuss but I'll share my opinion at the end.

53 minutes left on this poll, get your hot takes in now!

@nebunez That's an interesting perspective, and I think you might be on to something.

But let's not forget that JS makes some things a trash fire that do not need to be trash fires. For example, see this attachment.

@draeath @nebunez Javascript is a dumpsterfire because it suffered from the ultimate cases of "executive meddling" and "fast to market" simultaneously.

It was supposed to be Scheme implemented in the browser, but instead it was decided to make it more like Java (because everyone was apparently losing their minds over Java at that exact moment, which is crazy as Java itself was utterly new at the time) and Brendan Eich got it out the door in TEN DAYS.

@draeath @nebunez It's nigh impossible to fix early mistakes once a language goes into production, and JS is shot full of them as a result of the incredibly fast initial design period.

Python, by contrast, was little used throughout its 1.0 versions from the late 80's to 2000, giving it over a decade to come to a cohesive language design.

Python 3, in 2008, actually fixed some of the early issues present in Python 2, and is a great example of why this is almost never done.

@draeath @nebunez Is Python perfect? No way.

Is Javascript acceptable as a way to call frontend scripts? If you keep it light, sure, almost anything is reasonable if it's not used heavily.

Is there a massive language design quality disparity between the two languages? Very much so.

@urusan @draeath @nebunez a lot of people have convinced themselves that there's something truly wrong at the core of js.

the zeal of these forms of strongly held beliefs lead me towards an language aethism, a counter-belief that there is very little special about languages, and that most of the things people fret & wring their hands over are not a big deal.

@jauntywunderkind420 @draeath @nebunez I do agree that how an individual developer programs is more important than the language choice.

I can do some pretty amazing things in Java.

However, this doesn't make Java a great language.

@jauntywunderkind420 @draeath @nebunez Also, a big problem with poorly designed languages is that good developers tend to use them to write better languages, usually without any sort of standardization.

Modern "good" Java and JS have little resemblance to the originals.

@urusan elsewhere in this thread you have argued that languages like python have had the benefit of ~30 years of careful re-crafting

i feel like similar hope & aspirations apply here. yes, it looks different. sure the language has changed a bunch, but i think as importantly, how we use it has changed. surely the same goes for python & most languages.

@nebunez I figure both of them to be completely neutral and it's all up to the people who write the code as to how bad/good the *usage* is. I think there's way too much JavaScript in use on websites, sure, but that's not JavaScript's fault. Blame the projects, the companies, and their developers.

Then again, in most cases, the developers are just doing what they're paid to do.

@nebunez Personally I don't think JS is a terrible language, I just use it as a shorthand for the role it fills in browsers. Which I think should have been filled in a better way than routinely running code that has shown itself to be untrustworthy!

@nebunez Intrigued to see where this one goes 🙂.

@nebunez I think viewing any language as a binary good/bad puts the language on an unrealistic pedestal or ignores the great potential of it, respectively

@nebunez Javascript is bad for the same reason Perl is bad. Bad coders using them in the worst ways possible. They're both wonky languages but under the weirdness they're perfectly capable.

@nebunez this is part of why I don't use node:

$ time node -e 'console.log("Hello, World")'
Hello, World

real 0m27.656s
user 0m20.533s
sys 0m0.451s
$ time python -c 'print("Hello, World")'
Hello, World

real 0m0.547s
user 0m0.178s
sys 0m0.107s

@epoch You might want to get your node install looked at; mine only took 0.047s,0.030s,0.018s
My Python times were better though, so judging by our times I might just be on better hardware. However, that gap is still huge.

@nebunez I think Lua is a good example of what a language with similar features should look like. Too bad all three want you to think in OOP terms and none have good support for typeclasses.

@nebunez really hard to vote because there is no question. If I choose python, what does it mean? Python good? Python bad?

@efftoyz The implication is if you pick one of the first two you are saying it is good and the other is bad.

@nebunez If I'm allowed to use Typescript, I definitely prefer it to Python. JS vs Python is sort of a wash.

@nebunez Python doesn't use lexical or dynamic scoping, it just makes up its own thing entirely.
I think most programming languages are dumpster fires.
I've also had a twenty year career writing Python, so I have a detailed view of its bad points.
I'm especially unhappy that Python 3 switched list operations to lazy generators, but you still produce the entire list but it's just immediately discarded after use. I think that's the worst of both worlds.

@nebunez There will always be haters whatever you pick. I personally like js and have been using it for about 10 years now. I agree with the criticism about the oddities in js, but have never had a single problem with it. I also like python.

@nebunez
This is a good debate. Personally I find myself a beginner in both Python and JS. I use JS more as I do more web development. As much as I'm enjoying it, I'm also aware of the negative aspects, and I wouldn't use it if it created a barrier to accessing my content etc. If it doesn't add value (and isn't ethical), I can't justify using it.

@nebunez
Julia is:
* Ultra-performant
* Has all the same data science stuff as Python, but without having to be glue for C code (though C interop is still super easy)
* Is at the top of the language hierarchy, along with Lisp
* Uses multiple dispatch
* Is now reasonably mature

It's the language you've been looking for.

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