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@indie1337@vivaldi.net @mike @Vivaldi
Not going to get into a shouting match over browsers, lol (I'm glad you found one you like)
But isn't Vivaldi just Chrome re-skinned? I mean, I'm sure it's totally brilliant, but I personally would rather not use something derived from Chrome/Blink.
It's sort of turning into the new Internet Explorer, and I don't want to go back to those days.
I wish more browsers would use WebKit as their engine. Fast and light, and über-portable.
@RL_Dane Ooof, I don't want to get into a shouting match either, but that's borderline offensive 
.
Vivaldi is Chromium based, but it's so much more than Chrome. There's built in calendaring, translation, tasks, markdown based notes, rss and mail, etc. I can change the color scheme of my keyboard, mouse, and the room I'm in to match the color of the page I'm on with nothing added.
Saying Vivaldi is "Chrome re-skinned" is like saying a computer is a reskinned abacus.
@indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
@benjaminhollon Yea, kinda. Vivaldi is the emacs of browsers.
@benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Sounds like DNS.
@mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Totally fair. I didn't mean that it doesn't have groovy features. I just meant that I haven't checked it out lest I contribute to Chrome/Blink's ever-growing hegemony.
I've even avoided using qutebrowser, which is *so* much superior to luakit and vimb, because it's also Chromium-based.
cc: @benjaminhollon
@benjaminhollon @RL_Dane @mike @indie1337 @Vivaldi I still wonder what would have been had Mozilla had the resources to seriously make Gecko easy to embed
@michel_slm @RL_Dane @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Would be awesome. :)
@michel_slm @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Yeah, it's a tragedy that the most fully-featured and freest web browser exists off of the crumbs that fall off of GOOG's table.
(Not saying that it is the most fully featured, or the freest, but the most fully featured && the freest)
@RL_Dane @michel_slm @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi I am admittedly not a web developer, but I don’t understand why WebKit is not mentioned more in these discussions about Blink and Gecko. Is it way behind in terms of features and performance? I would be interested to see Gnome Web (Epiphany?) gain traction as a viable third alternative. Doesn’t Apple use WebKit for Safari? It seems like that already has millions of users.
@jmichaelsturm @RL_Dane @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Honestly I like WebKit less than Chromium. Every single mobile browser on iOS is required to actually use Safari under the hood, giving Apple a monopoly over the space and a stranglehold over what new web features are actually used. Even if every other browser has a feature, you can't use it because the only way for many mobile users to have a working site would be for them to leave Apple.
Don't blame WebKit for Apple being crappy.
@jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
@RL_Dane @jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
I don't, but Apple's huge control over it and the way they use it to maintain their monopoly really sets me against using it.
I know I use iOS (for those who don't know, it's a handed-down phone), but I really don't like Apple and plan never to buy one of their products.
@RL_Dane @jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Part of what makes Apple so frustrating to me is that they really do make spectacular products, but their corporate anticompetitive policies are so terrible.
Yeah. They're JUST SO BLOODY SMUG ABOUT EVERYTHING.
"Hurr deer hurr, just buy your mom an iPhone"
Just go play in traffic, Tim!
@jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
@RL_Dane @jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
XD
Well that's an interesting way to put it.
@benjaminhollon @jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Nobody hates on Apple like an ex-fanboy of 35 years. :P
@RL_Dane @benjaminhollon @jmichaelsturm @mike @indie1337 @Vivaldi WebKit is also not fully developed in the open; for instance Apple kept support for the M2 Silicon chips proprietary so if you want to run Linux on it... no WebKit based browser yet which means even the @gnome initial setup is broken on @AsahiLinux right now
@michel_slm @RL_Dane @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux Agreed. I have a love/hate relationship with Apple. I attribute my passion for computer engineering and my career as a firmware engineer to those early days exploring the Apple II+. They make amazing products. I am frustrated by their closed attitude. You would think an environmentally-minded company like Apple would embrace right-to-repair.
@jmichaelsturm @RL_Dane @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337 @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux like their stance on privacy I wonder how much of it is perfoematide, or playing second fiddle to other priorities
Oh, it's absolutely "privacywashing" at this point.
@jmichaelsturm @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
@RL_Dane @michel_slm @jmichaelsturm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
imo their privacy basically consists of "we're gonna use all your info ourselves but hey, we won't sell it to other people."
@jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @RL_Dane @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
I have a hard time accepting your claim that they're environmentally-minded. XD
@benjaminhollon @michel_slm @RL_Dane @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux Fair point. I should rephrase that … from a marketing standpoint, Apple wants us to believe they are environmentally-minded. 
@jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @RL_Dane @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
I'd say about them from a privacy standpoint. ;)
Framework, on the other hand, I think is genuinely environmentally-minded, which is part of why I'm so glad to have one of their laptops.
"Greenwashing"
A lot of these -washing stances started from a genuine place, but eventually bowed the knee internally to lord mammon.
@benjaminhollon @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
Indeed. I've got sweet memories of Apple hardware from about 1982 to about 2014, skipping the awful post-Sculley/pre-Jobs II period (1993-1997).
My doctor walked in to the exam room with an ipad and keyboard case last week, and I thought it was the most magnificent industrial design I'd ever seen, worthy of Science Fiction.
But I won't touch that ruddy locked-down prison of an OS.
@michel_slm @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
Ugh. Scummy
Are there any truly free browsers other than Firefox, then? I mean, I love Dillo, NetSurf, and w3m, but none of those will replace Firefox (although I often use w3m in leiu of ffox on slow machines 
)
@benjaminhollon @jmichaelsturm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
@RL_Dane @michel_slm @jmichaelsturm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi @gnome @AsahiLinux
I mean there's this: https://codeberg.org/moenavigator/moenavigatorengine
XD
@benjaminhollon @RL_Dane @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi Thanks for the explanation. So even though Blink and WebKit engines might be #foss and using open web standards, they are not community-driven and instead are controlled by Google and Apple respectively.
@jmichaelsturm @RL_Dane @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Pretty much, yeah. I don't know how much community development they get, but they are backed by those megacompanies, both of which really make negative use of them in some cases.
@jmichaelsturm @RL_Dane @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
Heh, Blink is actually a WebKit fork. Chrome used to use WebKit, but iirc Google forked it when they realized they were doing 90% of the work for WebKit anyway just to keep it up to current standards.
And WebKit is a KHTML fork.
Sad irony is that Qt no longer has any WebKit browsers.
QtWebView is 100% Blink. 
@jmichaelsturm @michel_slm @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi
I rather like WebKit, even more so than Gecko.
It's THE most portable browser engine.
I like Epiphany/Web, but it's not quite a fully-featured browser, yet. It's great for light browsing, but I'd want features like uBlock Origin and account containers.
@michel_slm @benjaminhollon @mike @indie1337@vivaldi.net @Vivaldi