Am I the only one that feels bad when the new guy really puts in an effort and figures out how to do something in 10 overly complicated steps, when if he'd have asked I could have told him how to do in 1 command?

@mike Maybe he learned 10 things from doing it the hard way :)

@mike Yeah I usually preface those talks with “Wow, I can see you put a lot of work into this . . . but . . . “

@Onorio @mike same here, only I %s/but/and/
Or translate it into a question first. Like, "what have you learned along the way?... Would you like to learn how to do it more easily/quicker/..."

@mike I can understand that feeling. It's the journey of learning that will remember this moment for the person along with your different approach will help change the thought process.

@mike It really depends. Did they learn something useful in their 10 complicated steps?
Maybe a good topic for standups or 1:1s. How quickly to ping for help? Depending on deadlines, spending some additional time can work out fine if it's a learning experience, but if there are tight deadlines, you need to cut to the chase and get things done.

@SonoMichele I still FEEL like I'm the new guy, but then I remember I've been here for 12 years and there's virtually no one still around that has seniority over me. That's when I have a panic attack over just how screwed we are if something goes really wrong. :)

@mike sometimes those 10 steps allows him to learn more than just condensing things

@mike you need a special section on the internal wiki for that!

@mike I don't mind people spending time on figuring it out on their own.

But the key thing for me would be: whether or not the person comes to you in the end complaining that there should be an easier way to do it.

If a person just makes it overly complicated and goes to a next task not seeing or not caring about it - this is where you should be worried.

@mike mentoring PFYs means to let them explore on their own, offer hints, then let them find out how to improve. Afterwards, there will be two types.

The ones that get frustrated and start to complain; you can let those go.

And the ones that accept the challenge to become better and learn from the greybeards and are thankful for pointers; those become the padavans.

@fedops @mike We have a lot of stuff to know in our job. I'm not too impressed with people who are parsimonious with direction in the hopes that I will "learn" from wandering around confused and doing it wrong 15 ways before I get it somewhat right. I just view it as a waste of my time and an very inefficient (perhaps counterproductive at times) way of learning.

@fedops @mike
They are afraid I will take the answer and apply it blindly. Actually I can learn from it and keep observing - I can start from standing on a shoulder or from standing on an ankle. I guess my progress will reflect my starting point.

@bjb learning is good. Some need more help, others less.

But specifically Unix has a way of shooting people in the foot if they copy & paste without understanding what they're doing. I offer 'curl | sudo bash' as an example.

I've been on the other side. New guy watching and suggesting based on logical half split fault-finding methods only to be told it couldn't possibly be the component I'd suggested. No credit given when proved correct.

@MurrayWindripper Ahh, that sucks. In this case, this method works perfectly well, but it's just very round-about. It gets the job done, so no complaints there. Just SUPER inefficient.

I would rather they try and work out how to do it themselves, no matter how complicated, before asking for help. It shows that they are trying to learn independently and not relying on you to always give them the answer.

Then show them a less complicated way and they will learn something, which will help them next time.

That being said, they should know when to ask for help and not waste time trying to figure it out. If it is time critical then getting help quickly is more important.

@mike he figured it out himself. That’s better then never trying. Though now that he has one method, he can now learn and simpler and quicker method.

As a former new guy, this is often one of the best ways to make the better solution stick in my memory. For better or worse 🤣

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