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This is what's wrong with the tech industry. The expectation that one should give their free time *EVERY DAY* or you're somehow "not passionate".

My response to that would be fuck you and your shitty fucking culture.

My kids and family are FAR more important to me than your ridiculous expectations.

</rant> 🙃

@kev It's a misunderstanding based on the definition of the word "passionate". You don't have to be passionate to do a job well. Passionate about working at a cash register? Give me a break.

Passionate about art, waxing lyricals after hours? Okay.

But you can be "dedicated" - to good service. A woodworker can be dedicated to quality, without being passionate. So can a programmer.

The problem with the quote is "programming is not for you". No, good work doesn't require passion, just dedication

@dcz @kev "dedication, not passion" -- THIS. This attitude that employees need to perform excitement for their job (especially for an interview) is gruesome. It's a job. There is no way you will love every day of it - not even the luckiest ones of us do. And you don't have to! If you're dedicated to doing it well, it ought to be enough.

@annathecrow @dcz @kev All of what you said is true, but knowing the situation in the industry his words actually convey his true intention:
He wants people who won't complain during overboarding crunch times. People who got no limits if it comes to coding, with a more "fluid" work-life balance.

Given all the rufus about Blizzard in particular in the recent years, I assume this is the most probable answer.

I found it helpful to dig out the quote in context. The guy's take--sure, maybe with a little backtracking--is more expansive and nuanced than this screenshot reveals.

@dcz
@kev

@dcz @kev I can't forget that "passion" meant "suffering" until quite recently.

There's work that's worth it, but it's for me or the world or the future, not for them.

@kev Why was he giving interviews when he could have been programming? 😈

@deightonrobbie @kev no, but he interviews every single person he crosses with.

@kev
"Why do you enjoy this career"
Because I like the things that being paid money allows me to do.

Not everyone is John Carmack.

@kev I wonder how a surgeon would apply this advice. Would Bob accept them spending the evenings piercing and tatooing their family? Or would he insist on full surgery?

@kev Haha, just noticed I slipped a May The Fourth spelling mistake in there..

@kev i would if i had the fucking energy, im so drained after work...

these robots probably dont understand the concept of rest and wonder why they feel like shit in their 30s

@kev I'm passionate, just not about making you money

@kev FREAKING SECONDED. I hate this attitude with a passion. How do you dare have a family, an unrelated hobby, a disability?

(If I wanted to be especially suspicious bastard about it, this is a good way to lower the self-esteem of everybody who isn't the uber-obsessed programmer, which then makes them easier to push around, underpay, owerwork.)

Sure, I know a guy who lives and breathes coding. I admire him! But the rest of us do good work as well.

@kev That's far from a healthy Work-Life balance, it's one of the things that makes me the most happy about living in Europe, it seems like work and life is a lot less horribly balanced here.

@sotolf yeah agreed. One thing I always try to do for my teams is have a positive work:life balance.

It's so important.

@kev Yeah, I think it also makes people more productive, it's more of an assumption I have based on a sample size of 1 so take it with a pinch of salt, but I am so much less productive in weeks that I'm on-call, even if nobody calls that week, because I always have to be prepared to switch on it makes me less productive when I'm working.

@sotolf @kev The rest of the world needs to learn from Europe’s example in this regard.

@kev I quit work because I could no longer enjoy coding at home.

@kev
Company in a job advert: we're looking for code ninjas who live and breathe code. If you aren't at the office writing code, you're at home writing code or in the shower thinking about code. Does this sound like you? Apply today.

Also company: why is it we only get applications from young men?

@basil @kev I once had an interview for a c# role, about 15 years ago, and the first question was "What is encapsulation?". I was so thrown by the stupid question I lost the ability to speak.

So many weird interviews from bad companies.

@kev that's what happened to me twenty years ago when I started working in the game industry. As soon as I'd decided to stop being there 24/7 I got labeled as 'not passionate anymore' and ostracized. I left the company.

@kev somehow not surprising to find a toxic game dev employer take. That whole industry is trash fire.

@rune @kev I find more arguements for indie-games everywhere I look :D

@sotolf @rune @kev in my experience indie devs are even worse about this though, like if you aren’t giving 1000% to your personal project in addition to working a day job so that you can pay rent (or somehow funding your project from savings or Kickstarter) then you’re also Doing It Wrong

@fluffy @rune @kev Depends on where you're living what your schedule is and everything. One can't really help with people tearing themselves up if they get obsessed with something. But they at least do it of their will and they aren't demanded into crunch.

@kev I not embarrassed to say that I used to think like that (early 20s), but priorities changes and your job can't be your hobby 24/7, there are other things in life to spent time on.

@kev guess someone isnt passionate for his family... or doesn't have one and can thus not judge over people who do.

Different people have different priorities, we should just not try to push our views onto them.

@kev I happen to enjoy coding in my free time (sometimes), and even I would take this as a huge red flag...

@kev @raboof @kev about original poster: tell me you are in a high position in a game company without telling you are...

Most people in the game industry don't have time to do side project because they are working overhours, consequence of tight schedules and mismanagement. Time is a luxury, and when you are exhausted, this fun project you do at home start to look not so fun.

He might have time to kill, but people working under him likely don't.

@skenizen yep. This just screams to me that they're a shitty manager who is oblivious to the needs of their team.

@raboof

@kev Agree %100 on priorities. I've long hated the phony abuse of the word "passionate" on, e.g., LinkedIn profiles. I guess my bottom line is to be passionate about the people in your life, not some fake career virtue signaling

port111.com/curious/blog/im-pa

@muio I'm not really familiar with Blizzard. Other than the fact they make Warcraft (I think?).

@kev
Correct. They've also made other franchises such as Overwatch, Starcraft, and Diablo.

Despite being successful, they are notorious for their awful work ethic and legal practices, case in point: https://wikiless.org/wiki/California_Department_of_Fair_Employment_and_Housing_v._Activision_Blizzard
and https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/09/14/activision-blizzard-union-busting-nlrb/

@kev im a big believer of working when it's working time, relaxing when it's relaxing time.

@kev I noticed during my internship that after working 8 hours on coding things when I got home I didn't want to code for other hours for my little "fun" side project. It's like it makes me feel bad sometimes if I try to code more even if I'm very passionate about this

@jomo @lubiana I have no idea. Maybe he got flack for the original tweet and reworded to the thread you linked?

The person allegedly saying it is less important though. The fact remains that this is the attitude of many people in tech.

@kev@fosstodon.org i'm a crazy person who programs nearly all day every day and even i wouldn't expect everyone to have time for that.

come back to earth Bob Fitch, not everyone is crazy like this.
😆

@kev if you’re not enjoying it it becomes a chore and you won’t enjoy it even at work. so in fact the opposite of this; if you are forcing yourself to code every day and you aren’t enjoying it? you are doing yourself a disservice

@kev I mean I wouldn't say this in an interview but the truth is I don't give a fuck about the industry at all and it is nothing more than a paycheck. My goal is to get paid the maximum amount for doing the least possible work lol.

@kev
Don’t know if „well, you know, I’m too busy doing your partner while you write code in your freetime“ would be a good answer but it’s kind of appropriate.

@kev SIF.
You can be passionate about multiple things.
Family, coding, food, growing things. Obsessive is the correct word.

@kev I've asked this in interviews at the workshop for 30 years: What do you build at home? Many answer they don't have time. Wrong. If you don't have the passion to woodwork 24/7, being a carpenter isn't for you.

🤮

A little subthread of the funniest takes I found on this note.

I’ve asked this in interviews at my finance department for 30 years: What do you account at home? Many answer they don’t have time. Wrong. Account at home. Every day. If you don’t have that passion, accounting isn’t really for you. Write small sums. Do Income and Expenditures.

farside.link/nitter/CunningSmi…

I’ve asked this in interviews in forensic science for 30 years: what bodies do you dig up at home? Many answer they don’t have time. Wrong. Dig up bodies at home. Every day. If you don’t have that passion, forensics is not really for you. Dig up small bodies

farside.link/nitter/hradzka/st…

I've asked this in interviews at Dunder Mifflin for 30 years: What kind of paper do you sell from home? Many answer they don't have time. Wrong. Sell paper at home. Every day. If you don't have that passion, paper is not really for you. Call your clients from home. Do paper jams.

farside.link/nitter/_alexGrac/…
Fucking knob probably never gets laid. Next to his keyboard is that stack of tissues.

@kev I briefly worked at a games company who had never done "crunch" before, and ended up on a disastrous project that was way behind schedule. They insisted we shift to a 60-hour week (with no extra pay), just before Christmas. Needless to say, I resigned.

In my exit interview, the CTO tried to convince me it was a *privilege* to work through crunch periods, and a bonus of working for a games company.

@kev
I now realise where I went wrong during my time in the Navy.
I should have spent my spare time sinking ships and killing people.
Instead I spent precious weekends and leave with my family... what a loser.

@kev
What really gets me is "make small games". What are you supposed to make small games ABOUT?! You're not reading books, you're not going on walks, you're not playing a sport. What experience are you going to share and how are you conveying experiences if you don't make time to have them?

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Fosstodon is an English speaking Mastodon instance that is open to anyone who is interested in technology; particularly free & open source software.