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Jason over at @Linux4Everyone is doing some really great stuff; I love what he's building. If you're on Discord, I'd highly recommend you guys check out the L4E channel - lots of great conversation going on in there.

discord.gg/PPwQWyybXZ

@kev @Linux4Everyone I find it hard to take something called "Linux For Everyone" seriously which uses Discord...

@be @kev @Linux4Everyone It’s not like there isn’t many many different libre protocols and implementations for chats closer to “linux’s spirit” existing.

@lord @Linux4Everyone @kev Linux For Everyone except people who don't want to use proprietary software? 🙃

@be With that mindset you don't need convincing to use Linux. Judging from the name, the kind of people L4E might be trying to reach are precisely the people you might find on Discord and other proprietary platforms.

@cirno So what? How is encouraging them to use Discord more helping anything?

@be How it is encouraging them to use it more? It's just a medium of transmission, it's like complaining about privacy advocates posting videos to YouTube. The people they want to reach use these services already. Also, privacy is not a zero-sum game, some compromises often have to be made. If the information is good, even if it's spread through "bad means" its effects are still net positive

@cirno one step forward and two steps back is a net of one step back

@be So using a proprietary service is so horrible in your opinion, huh...

I suggest you think about what that attitude of yours looks like from the perspective of an outsider and newcomer to the FOSS community. You might find your "two steps back" there.

@cirno Yes, proprietary services are bad. I'm not saying they should never ever be used under any circumstances. But there are plenty of alternatives. There's no compelling reason to choose Discord over them.

@be There is, and it's called userbase. There are compelling alternatives, sure, but if they're not in active use, they will be detrimental to progress. The same way you can spread your message through PeerTube instead of YouTube, but hardly anyone will see it then, and even if you tell people about it and encourage them to use it, having to go to a different platform just for you while everyone else does YouTube will not go well, because most people are lazy and comfortable.

@cirno Discord isn't a media publishing system so that's not really relevant.

@cirno If you think centralized proprietary services are fine then maybe go to Twitter?

@cirno @be You nailed it Cirno. People with this kind of repellant attitude do so much more harm than good, when it comes to welcoming people into the Linux world.

@be @lord this utilitarian approach is exactly what's wrong with the Linux community IMO. It's not a binary black or white. You can be a Linux/open source advocate, but still be pragmatic with it.

IMO there's nothing wrong with using a proprietary tool if it's significantly better than the open alternative, or if one doesn't exist.

Note: I don't know if Discord is better, but that's what Jason feels is best for his community. If you don't like it, don't join...

@Linux4Everyone

@kev @lord @Linux4Everyone That argument holds no water when there are alternatives that do the job well.

@be What alternatives are you thinking of, here?

@cirno There are tons. Zulip, Matrix, RocketChat, Jitsi, BigBlueButton...

@be @cirno Those alternatives you mentioned... they all support things like custom emoji, voice channels that support hundreds of people, multiple server channels for topic-based discussion, each with flexibile permission structures?

Because I don't think any of them do.

@Linux4Everyone @cirno Zulip supports those except for voice channels.

@be @kev @lord @Linux4Everyone I enjoy using Discord! I also use Fedora Linux as my daily driver, as well as Matrix, Google services, Windows, and the like. I deeply believe in open source, but the world isn't black and white, at least for me going proprietary SW only or opensource SW only isn't viable. I need a compromise. A bit of this and a bit of that. I known for a fact that platforms like Discord are familiar and appealing to newcomers. No need to be elitist and/or closed-minded.

@kriive @be @kev @lord @Linux4Everyone The whole concept is not about open source, it is about freedom and the user being in control of the software. Nothing to do with being closed minded or being an elitist. When someone compromise they will compromise on security, privacy and freedom.

@Coneng @kriive @be @kev @lord But it IS also about elitism and gatekeeping.

See, @be dismissed Linux For Everyone out of hand just because we use Discord. Maybe they don't know that I also introduced literally millions of people to Linux at Forbes, or that hundreds have made the switch because of my videos on another proprietary platform, YouTube.

Or that, in general, it's just a great community!

Nope. None of that matters because we aren't 100% FOSS.....

@be let me flip that on it's head - what if by using platforms like Discord and YouTube, L4E is able to reach a wider audience and entice new people into the open source space?

That's a win for open source in my book.

@lord @Linux4Everyone

@kev @lord @Linux4Everyone I disagree. It is no win to have more Linux users on Discord.

@be well then, I hope you're happy in your elitist echo chamber...

@lord @Linux4Everyone

@kev @lord @Linux4Everyone They're the ones creating an echo chamber by alienating people using proprietary software. I'm not criticizing the users engaging with them on Discord. I'm criticizing the institution which pressures users to use Discord.

@be "The institution which pressures users to use Discord" being Linux 4 Everyone who decided to make a Discord server, or some upper entity which makes Discord an enticing platform?

@be
People, please chill.

@Linux4Everyone has also a #matrix room!

I do not have the link at hand, but surely easy to find.
@cirno

@nurinoas @Linux4Everyone @cirno I don't see a Matrix room on linux4everyone.com/social although there is Telegram (which has a proprietary server).

@nurinoas @Linux4Everyone @cirno Well then I guess the criticism here is more at @kev for promoting Discord.

@nurinoas @Linux4Everyone @cirno @kev and also they should list the Matrix room on their website

@be @nurinoas @cirno @kev Thanks for the comment. I'm actively promoting it on our various channels, podcasts and platforms. BUT I forgot to update it on the website.

@be
Maybe @Linux4Everyone could mention their exemplary bridging more prominently because they''re settings an example & show what open protocols can actually do.

I also reckon that @killyourfm seem to have a lot of joy with #videogaming

#discord seems where gamers traditionally hang out.

@Linux4Everyone @cirno @kev

@nurinoas If you mean the conversation involving the user icefairy, that's actually me :P

First time using Matrix and I'm quite impressed with what it can do.

@nurinoas @be @killyourfm @cirno @kev Avri Roth set this up, and I'd love for him to discuss it in depth. Not sure how he did it but it's a nice, elegant integration I think!

(He's not here but he is on Twitter at twitter.com/posh4linux)

@be @nurinoas @cirno Thanks for spotting that! it's relatively new, and I haven't updated the podcast site pages because we're building a brand new website to house everything.

But good catch, I'll update it now.

@be Honestly, how is that not a win? What is the problem with Linux users who also use Discord? You can switch your OS from Windows to Linux, switch your browser from Chrome to hardened Firefox, use privacy-friendly front-ends for various services, use LibreOffice for office work, Jitsi for meetings, so on and so forth, but if you still use Discord then it's all shite and pointless in your mind?

@cirno Nope, not what I'm saying at all. It's pointless if institutions normalize use of Discord as if there's no problem with it.

@kev @be @Linux4Everyone By using their proprietary platform you give them credibility in the foss comunity. You legitimate their walled-garden…

@be
Much like many foss projects would host their code on GitHub.
@kev @Linux4Everyone

@be @kev I find it hard to take anyone with this kind of elitist attitude and preference for gatekeeping seriously.

Do you know how many people have been introduced to Linux itself, or amazing FOSS projects, inside our Discord server?

You do you. We'll leave the door open for EVERYONE.

@kev @Linux4Everyone Thanks for the invitation. I've used it to sign up for Discord and joined.the l4e community..👍😁

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