@kev I'm really interested by this, and sympathetic to it too. I have struggled with getting #IndieWeb fully implemented on my own website, though I was planning to return to it.

I'm convinced that the future lies in this direction, but perhaps the future isn't here quite yet!

@davidoclubb I think (hope) it does lie there too, but I think there's a lot of work to do in order to make the barrier for entry and improving maintenance going forward.

@davidoclubb @kev I'm the same. Kev's post has made me realised that I've not beeen posting anything recently as the IndieWeb elephant is just too big for me to bite and eat. I still subscribe to the ethos, but I think for me POSSEing and PESOSing etc. is for the future. But hats off to all the devs and I wish them best of luck for getting it mainstream and working out of the box for all.

@kev
> What I have seen — and this is purely anecdotal — is that people try to implement it, get the basics working, then give up.

Me.

Never got a notification.

So why haven't I removed my #IndieWeb plugins?

@kev
Tried, got some deleted, but the others won't delete. Trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

@kev I never got IndieWeb support working on anything I tried, so I gave up a while ago. That said, kudos for adding a guestbook. I miss seeing more of them.

Now you just need a webring, topsites page, banner exchange... </sarcasm> :crazy:

@techbalion I already have a blogroll, that's a kind of "top sites" page. I've been seriously thinking about having a webring.

I don't know any good ones though, so I might make my own for peeps on the fedi. 🙂

@kev nice touch with the guestbook! haven't seen those since maybe 20 years ago! 😀

@kev I could not configure the Indieweb either. I know if I had spent more time I would have done it but I just gave up because I thought I have better things to do.

@kev I feel your pain. I'm in the middle of a crisis myself 😀 It's definitely not ready for prime time. But it's not that far from being usable either. I'm working on a more in-depth article to identify the weak spots, maybe we can gather resources to address those limitations.

@kev I don't really understand the "7 wordpress plugins" part. Can you go into more details?

Also, the is designed to be incremental. You don't need to remove *everything*. 😕

@kev Also, I don't see why you need a plugin for indieauth. On my site (not wordpress), I use relmeauth, which is literally just a hidden anchor tag in the footer.

@binyamin ah, it’s a convoluted mess. There’s the IW plugin, which I think does nothing more than install other plugins. Then there’s plugins for the various services, plugins that add certain markup, but the classic editor plugin is required for this as they don’t support Gutenberg.

All together, 7 plugins. 🤦‍♂️

@kev @binyamin Running a full-featured IndieWeb blog with just the Micropub and IndieAuth plugins, and my own Webmention implementation. Didn’t like Semantic Linkbacks, so I’m not using it. Same for Post Kinds—I’ll have good ol’ CPTs instead, please. And, you’re right. Do not need the IW plugin itself, at all.

@kev That's rough. I guess I have it easy, since I use HTML, CSS, and a bit of JavaScript. I don't have a CMS, just a build tool, so no plugins necessary.

@kev sadly I can't reply with my own blog to your post any more, but the point is: you got it wrong.

IndieWeb is not one thing, but many building blocks; each works serving a different purpose - hence the multiple plugins. BTW, there's nothing complicated about installing WordPress plugins.

Apart from Webmentions - the "nobody" uses part - there's POSSE/PESOS for example, which is even more important: to own your content, to have a copy.

I think you got IndieWeb wrong.

@petermolnar did you read the post? I specifically said, multiple times, that IW is made up of multiple parts.

Installing plugins is easy, but integrating all the markup into the theme and maintaining that is a nightmare. On two occasions plugin updates broke stuff in my site. More plugins - more risk.

It’s my site and I have the right to do what I want with it. It’s not your place to say I’m wrong, it’s a personal choice.

@kev

If it's clear that it's building blocks, why is it not clear that it's not all or nothing?

There is no such thing as "indieweb" support.

There is microformats, webmentions, cross-posting (POSSE/PESOS), etc support.

That said, by all means, of course you do whatever you want to do with your site, but that won't diminish the part that you're bashing words against IndieWeb, blaming that it's complex, while the WordPress itself is already way too guilty of that.

@petermolnar the indieweb is the sum of its parts. So by saying “supporting the indieweb” I’m clearly referring to supporting all the parts encompassing it.

Again, I said this in the post (did you read it?) I wasn’t using all parts of the indieweb. Those 7 plugins were for the parts I was using.

Anyway, I’m not here to justify my position. I’m glad it works for you and your happy. More power to you. I’m now happy with my site too. 😊

@kev I was in a bad mood yesterday, so sorry for the rough responses.

Your site is certainly nice, and I actually understand the need for cutting the bloat - been there myself, learnings are at petermolnar.net/article/making

Plus a night of sleep got me to realize that I actually miss my guestbook from the early 2000s era.

Peace, and good luck with the uncluttered site!

@petermolnar thanks. I love a good post about cutting bloat - I’ll be sure to read this once the kids are off to bed. 😊

@kev @petermolnar So glad you wrote that post, Kev. The IndieWeb stuff is so niche and high maintenance. I may do the same and remove those plugins.

@dajbelshaw

I'm genuinely curious Doug: which building blocks are high maintenance?

When I moved from WordPress to a Python script to generate my site, I added #microformats2 in the templates, webmention receiving via 3rd party, and I haven't touched that part of the code ever since.

If the trouble is with the WordPress plugins, I'm fairly certain the plugin developers would welcome reviews and/or bugreports.

cc @kev

@dajbelshaw

(pt2)

As for niche... yes. For now. Pingbacks, even RSS were once niche as well.

The building block that's not niche is microformats 1 & 2:
aaronparecki.com/2016/12/17/8/

Even now, Google, in the process of sunsetting their Structured Data Testing Tool, still recognizes a lot of mf1 with their new Rich Results tool.

So, again: building blocks. Some are useful, some are niche, and one should only use those, which they need.

cc @kev

@petermolnar @kev The plugins aren't high maintenance, especially if you have them on 'auto-upgrade', it's the user workflow that's high maintenance...

@petermolnar Commenting on someone else's website by logging into your own site is barely intuitive for *me* never mind anyone else.

As I've said before, it feels like a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s trying to rewind time.

Actually, this conversation has solidified my position, so thanks! 😅

@dajbelshaw

There are readers which have this integrated: indieweb.org/reader

But indeed, for that level of comfort, one needs a lot of pipes in the background.

The example you picked happens when someone takes only a few of those blocks, yet even without the rest, it's still possible to comment across websites.

@dajbelshaw Check out my "social readers" demos and talks. I'm commenting on this post using an interface that looks a lot like Twitter/Mastodon, except it results in creating a post on my website. It's actually very similar to how Mastodon works. https://indieweb.org/social_reader

@kev I honestly agree with everything in your post. I'm tinkering with some stuff (slowly) to make it better, but I've given up on WordPress, as there's just so much complexity there already. needs more turnkey solutions for people who just want a site that works.

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