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Recently, multiple I listen to, talked about the issue of "not being nice" to those on Linux who want to use proprietary software.

I think proprietary sw is a problem, especially if you run it on a personal device. However, sometimes it is hard to avoid it.

However, practical concerns should not affect advocacy. We should advocate for the "ideal" world we would like to see, and consider practical solutions as compromises one has to make in a non-ideal world.

@nicemicro I wouldn't actually mind me some proprietary software on Linux. Well, as long as it's containerised property and can't snoop around the system too much.

I think it's the lack of commerce in Linux ecosystem that is keeping the OS back from mass adoption and becoming a norm.

Android is a good example of how powerful could be

@kaievans And Android is also a good example of how much of a spyware infested hellscape it could be.

Your access controls and constraints are worthless if every app you get from the store refuses to work without you giving them access to your location, webcam, etc.

@nicemicro maybe so, but FOSS is also useless at replicating a lot of proprietary software. It's been 20 years, and I have my doubts it will ever happen.

the way I see it, solving the security problem is more approachable by FOSS community, than solving the lack of commercial grade software

@kaievans commercial grade software belongs on corporate machines that are not "personal" devices. As a corporation, you don't have privacy concerns. You might have corporate secrets, but you also probably have lawyers for such contingencies.

If Free Software will be unable to exploit regular people by trying to sell them overpriced "professional" software... we don't lose out on anything.

@nicemicro @kaievans Professional, Industry Standard and alikes are just euphemism for software recommendation.
Kai Evans

@colinsmatt11 @nicemicro sure thing, were not talking tautology here though. I'm talking simply about availability of commercial software options

FOSS doesn't even have a decent email/calendar client, let alone any specialised software for media production. Fuck it wouldn't even have a decent code editor if it's not for vs code ;)

And it will never have those because all FOSS cares about is software aka programming. And there is much more involved in making a great product that that

@kaievans @nicemicro @doctormo I don't use an email client or calendar so I don't know what issues they have.
And how exactly you are measuring decency? Because I genuinely don't have an idea.

As for media production software, I'm sure they are many but I personally have used Blender and didn't any issues with it.

I don't consider vs code a suitable editor for my needs and again I have no idea how you measuring decency

I certainly agree that software development and similar have higher representation in free software but that might be due to a participation issue as @doctormo have talked about.

@colinsmatt11 @doctormo @nicemicro so, let me summarise what you said here

basically, you don't use much software and therefore you assume that nobody else needs anything

would you say this is more of a smart position to have or more of a dumb one?

@kaievans @doctormo @nicemicro I never said or implied that I don't use much software.
I'm currently using Soapbox as my fediverse client and Rebased on server using Firefox.

I don't use the same software as many other people because that doesn't fit my needs.

I'm certain that different people have different needs but how I'm supposed to know about them without them telling me about it.

@colinsmatt11 @doctormo @nicemicro are you sure you're reading the messages you're replying to, Matt? :)

I said right there, that _I_ want proprietary software on my linux machine, I _want_ a decent email and calendar apps, and I don't mind paying for them. I want Fusion360, and actually fully supported Zoom, and a commercial note taking app, and video games that work and supported by the vendor, and a whole slew of other things

@kaievans you can want whatever you want. You are arguing with no one on that. That was even my original point in the original post.

But why on earth would you ADVOCATE for proprietary (user-abusing) software? Why not advocate for making good free software alternatives instead, and treat using proprietary ones as a temporary compromise?

Also, please stop confusing the word "commercial software" as the opposite of free software, because it makes arguing useless.

martin has already pointed out the most basic error in your post, but I wonder, what is your gold standard of commercial email/calendar client?

@lxo Martin just wanted to be part of the conversation, god bless his cotton socks

At the root of what I said is that, ultimately, I want to use Linux as a decent manager's machine. Meaning good officially supported software for office, calendar, mail, zoom, etc etc. And a content creator, meaning video games, video editing software, etc.

All this software is commercially built, because all FOSS managed to produce in 20+ years is ugly farts like kmail and evolution.

@lxo and that goes back to the main problem with gnu/foss philosophy, it's focus on software.

It's a great approach to produce tech, like Linux kernel for example, but it consistently failing to produce great products. Because great products involve much more than just software

ISTM you've got a twisted pitch. the FS movement is about freedom, not products; nonfree software subjugates you, it's an injustice, so it doesn't belong in civilization. if you don't like what the software you use does, you should be free to improve it, or to fund whoever you trust to do so on your behalf, individually or collectively.
me, I'm very happy with gnus and org-mode in emacs. I was genuinely curious about what you wanted for email and calendaring, but I wouldn't be surprised if you, like most people, had got so used to the human farming environments that you find them more comfortable than user-liberating and -controlled ones

@lxo im sorry Alexandre, but what you're saying is basically a self justifying lunacy that has zero evidence in reality

as I said to the other guy, RMS is a false prophet. the kind of freedom you're talking about is a lunacy that only cares about the engineering side of the equation. RMS basically had daddy issues in his youth, and you follow his path blindly like lemmings

engineering? I'm talking about politics and ethics!
if given a choice of using your computer, running the same program, between having your hands tied behind your back and also your eyes blindfolded, or neither, which one would you choose?

@lxo yes, blindfolded and with a dildo in my butt, lol

You know that mastodon and underlying rails are not GNU GPL, right? What about the smartphone software that runs in your pocket, is that even OSS? Are you using them blindfolded and with a dildo in your butt?

Do you even hear how moronic you free software folks sound? " Hat damn' I like my Emacs, and everyone who wants different just hates our freedoms!"

AFAIK Mastodon is AGPL, and so is GNU social, that I use.
my (ancient) smartphone runs free software (GNU/Linux)
my (also ancient) pocket watch (formerly a smartphone) runs replicant
sorry to disappoint you

now, being overpowered and unable to resist injustice is quite common, but embracing and promoting the injustice inflicting on yourself to others... that's the difference between victim and accomplice

@lxo Ill try this one time okay. just for the kicks of it.

just go and eyeball the number of success stories between FOSS, permissive OSS, and proprietary OSS projects

don't listen to me, look to the numbers. do you still think that production of the most useful software that advances the "civilisation" as you said, is a function of FOSS licensing?

"FOSS licensing" is not what it's about. most software developed commercially in the world is written for a single customer, that gets source code and full rights, so it's freedom-respecting software. a lot of other software is developed for internal use, thus also freedom-respecting software. neither undergo licensing.
even when it comes to licensed software, every one of the top 500 supercomputers runs GNU/Linux; all of big techs relies on and develops free software for their own operations; nearly all of the largest non-IT companies use and prefer free software. all of them realize and pursue the benefits afforded by software freedom.
nonfree software is mostly relegated to suckers and losers, such as small businesses and individual computer users, who are trained and driven into dependence on nonfree software for benefit of software providers, surveillance capitalism and whatnot. let's not be ridiculous by suggesting that people prefer to be spied on, imposed misfeatures, denied desirable features, and forced into monopolies.

@lxo yeah, right. While you're busy still fapping on supercomputers like it's 1999, proprietary software runs on billions of devices and powers the bulk of the economy

And don't give the whole Linux everyone nonsense.

at last we agree on something: the majority of (exploited) users run nonfree software and that powers the (exploitation) economy. we don't agree on whether that's a good thing, though.

now, you don't seem to be debating in good faith. it gets tiring after a while. have a good life. I hope you find peace and freedom for yourself, for everyone you love, and for everyone you hate too.

@lxo I actually believe that both FOSS and proprietary software licensing, do essentially the same thing. They cock block each other from their software being used by the other group. Both of the sides are assholes who only care about themselves

if you truly want to contribute to the society, you should permissively license you code and let anyone "steal" it. It doesn't matter if somebody makes money of it or not, well unless you're just being an envious shmuck about it, that is

it's never been about someone else's making money. it's about respecting others' autonomy over their own computing. people don't enjoy being enslaved, subjugated, controlled, deprived of choice, forced to behave against their will, whether or not someone else benefits from it. some of us take a stand against all of that. other defend exploiters who benefit from subjugating others. whose side are you on, and why?
https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/pub/against-software-tyranny.en.html

@lxo what a load of self agrandising horse shit.

Hey, I tell you what, take all this crap and go try to sell it again as "we're basically solving slavery" to someone who was actually affected by slavery, I'd looove to hear how that would go