@hund it avoids the biggest truth though. which is that configuring a dozen daemons each with their own specific way of being configured sucked. having a normalized monorepo of base utilities, with standard means of configuration/control, is a huge blessing.

i don't mind most of the "facts". the "systemd is truly a huge monolith" though seems unbelievably out of this world petty if not outright wrong. oh you explicitly told systemd-networkd to control dns? and you're complaining about what? that it is? please bro, find something at least minorly complainable to cite here. this is crap.

all in all this is an extremely non-technical, extremely fear based write up. it talks about background, but from a very narrow view, & doesn't represent any of the technical or operator upsides.

@jauntywunderkind420 couldn't agree more. For anyone who's maintaining software for systems it's an absolute blessing.

I like how he's saying Redhat wants it for stability and reliability reasons. Yeah, really. I want that too.

For anyone who doesn't like systemd (and I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons for that) - there's lots of choices out there. That's great. Just maybe inform yourself beyond such a fear mongering piece first.

@fedops @jauntywunderkind420 @hund Many people just say "if you don't like systemd just use another choice". That's how floss has always worked but with the fucking systemd is not so easy because it absorbed many components and now it's much more difficult to not depend on it.

Fortunately in the desktop there are alternatives but in the corporate way we barely have choices, so things like we cannot install X on devuan because it depends on systemd-crapd it's more common now.

@jrballesteros05 can you link an issue or issues for that that sounds very silly

@jauntywunderkind420 Silly? I cannot install proxmox on Devuan because it relies on many systemd components.

And I wouldn't mind if I just have to install the components I need but I have to install all the monolithic crap to make proxmox work.

If you are happy with systemd, fine. But this is not like the typical war between vim and Emacs when anyone can use whatever they want and everyone is happy. This is much more complicated than many people think.

@jrballesteros05 dude link issues where these problems occur so we can learn something technical blocking stuff & maybe improve things or quit your whining

@jrballesteros05 I said silly because plenty of non systemd capable os'es run x fine. if there is some problem devuan or other legit have we should be able to figure out wtf, that's a totally silly situation you're right, & we should fix it. i'm more than happy to actually learn about real problems but being whined at with no background or context to agree or disagree over is stupid.

@jauntywunderkind420 I tried to install proxmox on Devuan this year and I couldn't. Then I came to this link:


So. I know what defenders normally say:

"This is proxmox fault because every developer decided in what they software should depend".

I agree this is 90% proxmox fault but it's also systemd fault. Especially with their non standard interfaces. Now if I want proxmox on Devuan I will probably need to patch it.

@jauntywunderkind420 And sorry if I sound too strong. I write like this but I don't have anything personal. I guess I should read twice what I write.

My rant is against systemd, no against you or people who use it.

@jrballesteros05 it's not about your strongness or anything else.

you just don't provide any useful information. you say there are problems but you don't show us what they are, you don't link to discussions on issues or possible improvements.

it's useless. please, just try to make your posting moderately useful. right now it isn't.

@jauntywunderkind420 So. I showed the links and arguments and that's everything you have to say? Lol.

@jrballesteros05 didn't see the proxmox link, pardon.

discussion there was very non technical. pretty standoffish confrontational attitude from both sides. I doubt the claim that systemd is really so integrated that it's be hard to fork g fix, but doesn't seem like anyone cares enough to see. very unclear to me where the problems start. I looked at proxmox's repos & alas there's just a lot of individual repos, makes it hard to tell what to look at first without knowing where issues began.

you showed me one link to a low info confrontation.... I should have said more but missed it. not losing sleep for failing to meet your great expectations here.

@jauntywunderkind420 @jrballesteros05

chucho: rather dry description of what isn't working, even making the concession of installing parts of systemd-crap.

jauntywunderkind: sTaHp tHe wHiNinG!

i don't really get why one has to defend systemd, it has won by all accounts. it's as cool as being a fan of an overfinanced sports club who wins everytime :)

@hund @jauntywunderkind420 configuring of daemons is ok. but some people suck and shouldn't approach a computer. simply.
@hund @jauntywunderkind420 and yes, if something suck, besides brainless users, that is useless-d:
it's pretty excellent singke point of failure and I congratulate those who cannot write a couple of scripts preferring to get that hemorrhoid instead.
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