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In the recent days, due to the news with WhatsApp, I've seen a lot of people getting their loved ones away from WhatsApp (which is good), to other services like Signal and Telegram (which is not good).

If you managed to convince them to try something new, why not choose something that's not centralized and proprietary software? And instead something that's based on open standards, that's open source, decentralized, federated, platform agnostic, easy to host and lightweight, something like XMPP?

@hund yes agreed. I'm happy to see them improving from one perspective but they are just changing owners. Why suffer all over again right? I had a similar feeling last month: fosstodon.org/@Hawk1291/105194

@Hawk1291 I think that's because they never really wanted to use Mastodon in the first place. That's why it's bad for them, even though they tried it and gave it a "fair" chance. :/

@hund Out of curiosity, how would switch to XMPP work? Host own server? Is there even free servers? Use some paid for server?

@jb I host my own public server via @Linuxkompis. There's a lot of other free servers out there like nixnet.services by @amolith.

Hosting your own is so lightweight it can be done smoothly on the first Raspberry Pi and even on that super cheap Zero model. :)

@hund @Linuxkompis @amolith Ok, nice. I recall some 10y ago I looked into XMPP for a bit and it looked somewhat sad. Looks like it's improved nowadays.

@jb @Linuxkompis @amolith I've been using it for about 15 years, I have never found it lacking. It have improved with time, along with how we use our instant messaging services. :)

@hund I've given up trying to convince people move to #xmpp. People outside of privacy enthusiastic find the whole idea out of touch tinfoil type of thing. Even the ones who have the skills to run their own server if they decide to.

For me Signal represents sane compromise.

@tzycce @hund This, XMPP useage is too cumbersome for most people. I actually tried to set up matrix on my fathers phone, but its so unreliable it feels like a beta version to me.

@samurro @tzycce Why didn't you try XMPP with him instead? It's a lot easier and straightforward. :)

@hund @tzycce I used it briefly with a colleague, but I am not convinced of their applications and like I said its as cumbersome as matrix.

@samurro @tzycce Which applications is that? And who are they? XMPP is just a mere protocol.

How is it cumbersome to sign up for an account where you have to give them a username and a password? And then use said username and password in an application or some web client. :)

@hund @samurro

Who will take care of the server? Will they trust the person/company?

People are very suspicious of private person or small company running service. They rather rely on megacorporations.

@tzycce @samurro Someone who cares to host it? Perhaps a friend or something. If they don't have anyone, then they have to learn how to do it or just not use a online instant messenger service at all.

@hund @tzycce So they would go back to SMS. Not sure thats the appropriate way of thinking.

@samurro @tzycce If someone can't even decide on where to register an account, they have other issues to deal with before they're ready for the Internet.

@samurro @tzycce How did they decide on a cellphone carrier to begin with? That seems like a far more bigger choice to do.

@hund @tzycce Not sure where you from but deciding on a carrier is just a joice of net quality + price. Nothing to do with trust or privacy.

@hund @samurro

Asking someone who has no experience of servers to host a chat application seems such a weird thing to do. It is far from a trivial task and copy&pasting without understanding what they are doing is going to lead to trouble more likely sooner than later.

Registering an account to a free more or less unknown provider seems like a recipe for disaster to me.I would never do that for any other reason than testing.

@hund @samurro

Choosing a carrier seems like a trivial problem to me in comparison.

Gatekeeping "they are not ready for the internet" isn't helpful at all since you hardly have a choice in modern world anymore. They would be just back to square one.

@hund @tzycce Conversation(s). The problem lies within if you e.g. bring one person to use XMPP its like asking to have an exklusive communications app just for you, because nobody else has it.

@hund @tzycce And the reason for that lie in how you have to decide on which server you want to sign up, most normal people will be like "but which one is the best/how can I trust them"?

@tzycce I have my mom and my girlfriend on XMPP. :) My mom required some brute force convincing though. ;)

@hund sure I could convince the people most close to me. But that is not enough.

The most difficult ones are hobby related group chats.

@hund element (self-hosted) is my first choice and signal is my backup

@hund well, I'm pretty sure :raspberrypi: consumes much less power than a regular server, so family comms shouldn't be a problem at least. I'd have to measure energy consumption somehow.

@hund @lopeztel they do have beta version which uses golang. Only uses around 100 to 200 MB of memory. And CPU usage is also quite low

@lxzio @hund I'm guessing you're talking about , right? I knew of it but my self-hosting abilities are very limited, I use precisely because synapse (and other apps) are basically a one-click install. I'd guess in the future I'd need to figure out a way to migrate when dendryte is out of beta and added to yunohost

@hund is XMPP federated, or do you have to gather all your people on one server?

@aluaces @hund That's great :) it's really sounding like something I'd love to use with people around me, simple light weight and nice I'll make an account, and then try to see if I can get someone else to join, I'm not very sure though with the wa chokehold.

@sotolf Didn't you read the message? I said it was federated. :D

@Nicolai Ireneo-Larsen @Hund from what i see on the internet - selfhosting signal is not a trivial task. it is centralized service. then the 'opensource' thing doesn't matter when the protocol is controlled by a private company, for example telegram controls the protocol, so they change it as they wish. one day they decided to make it possible to delete own messages from others' chats. that means someone can delete what they said on my computer. that's not what libre software does, libresoftware is controlled by user, not by remote user or company. on the contrary, xmpp is a real democracy, there are xeps and people discuss them and vote.

@wonderingdane You can read the source
but not much else unless you self host the server for your clique.

Since Moxie dissaproves of third party apps, using signals name and federation.
@hund

@hund I do think Signal is a good compromise. Out of interest what are your thoughts on XMPP vs Matrix? I would have thought Matrix would be contender here.

@Softinio @Hund can i tell you that i don't like matrix - it's too heavy, both the server and applications, and even web interface.

jabber server has many implementations, as well as there are many clients to choose from. but all of them are leightweight. i remember matrix server had this limitation, when you had to use postgre, otherwise it would not be federated.

also for me matrix is too fancy, glamorous, i think jabber is mostly modernistic and minimalistic, and much more usable.

here i need to mention that xmpp is extensible protocol and functionality you will have depends on extension support both by chosen server and client application. for example, syncing chat history among different clients, or end to end encryption, or file upload are extensions, and need to be enabled on the server, then you need to choose a client which supports those protocol extensions.

btw, i did not want to enable chat history sync on my server, because that requires that chat history should be kept on the server. i had just a config that did not keep anything. but the users wanted that badly, it was a dealbreaker for them, because they are used that "modern" chats have that feature, so i was almost forced to add the extension.

@inky, from the tape @Hund oh let me correct myself, i think omemo support is juts client feature.

@softinio Both are open source, decentralized and federated, which is good. What I don't like about Matrix is the fact that both the clients and the backend are bloated, the server is complicated and difficult to host and manage. And you can't even delete your own account. Where as XMPP is easy to host and (most of) the clients and the servers are really lightweight.

What I don't like about XMPP is the fact that the goof E2EE options is a bit complicated to use for a regular user.

@hund which server implementation did you use or recommend?

@softinio I'm using Prosody, it's easy to setup, it works great and it's really lightweight. The @snikket_im project is using Prosody as well. :)

@Softinio @Hund i am also using prosody, i actually use it with diaspora users db, so my diaspora pod users have also xmpp accounts.

that is officially supported by diaspora btw.

i also used ejabberd, and it was very stable.

@hund
Barely any good clients, incompatibilities with the awful modular nature of the protocol, no realible voice chat, no reliable video calling, increased server issues...

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