There's good thinking here. P2P, distributed storage, zero trust. We can do all of that without blockchain. Blockchain doesn't solve the distributed communication problem. For that, we need Internet-wide multicast.
@dentangle could you say more about what you have in mind when you say "Internet wide multicast"? It sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I get exactly what you mean.
@codesections multicast is essentially many to many (group) communication. We can do this at the IP level, Internet-wide. The technology already exists, but is disabled by default on routers. Librecast is the project I'm working on to fix that with some transitional tools.
@dentangle so are you imagining a serverless future? (In the real sense of the word, not the double-speak version where "serverless" means "more servers")
If so, how do you deal with people not leaving computers online 24/7?
If not, what content gets distributed many-to-many? What's the (non ideological) advantage of doing so instead of routing it through a central server?
(These aren't hostile questions—your ideas sound really cool and I'd like to understand your thinking better)
The non-ideological advantage of of a central server is that content from many individuals is avaliable whenever the server is online—without the different users needing to keep their individual computers online.
(My use of "central" need not imply "centralized". For example, I get a lot of advantages from having my toots stored on #fosstodon's server, which acts as a central server for its 1000+ users)
@codesections @bob @dentangle
Then we need to put a size to "centrali(z/s)ed".
I run a centralised mail platform for me and my family, other platforms for small/large organisations and naturally the Mastodon instance where unrelated (family and/or work) people share content but...
... from my perspective I'm actually running decentralised platforms as they are not under the control of a single massive (size to be defined) entity.
@codesections @bob @dentangle There is still work to do but we are getting there.
This, in the meantime, is happening: https://nextcloud.com/blog/nextcloud-conference-2018-millions-of-nec-routers-nextcloud-14-and-simple-signup/
Combining a decent HW with a platform that makes it easy to run consumer services (something like Kodi and @yunohost together) as a set-top box then we could have proper decentralisation for the masses.
I bet we'll get there within a year :-)
At least, what I can tell is that Bram and me won't be part of next year's effort : https://www.libre-parcours.net/post/will-there-be-a-decentralized-internet-devroom-at-fosdem-2019/
@onepict you're welcome 😊
Thanks, I will have a look. We definitely have views on this. It was great at the last Fosdem being able to chat with you at the debian stand. Hopefully I'll be able to get in the dev room this year if it goes ahead.
Although I definitely have someone in mind who could submit for Privacy and copyright. He isn't on Mastodon atm, but I'll point him at the forum.
Is it worth posting about the proposal on decstack.com. 's chat server?
@onepict I don't know what decstack.com is, so I leave it to you :)
Cool, it's another hub of people who want decentralised communications and a couple of blockchainers although rather ironically the chat software they use is centralised. I will see how active it is at the moment.
I just remembered the story of sita sings the blues and how even though Nina Paley purchased the right to use Annette Hanshaws songs for global distribution GEMA got her film taken down in Germany. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita_Sings_the_Blues. I suspect we may get more artists and developers who encounter these issues.
@onepict I tried to convince Nina Paley to move from Twitter to Mastodon before I closed my T account but I don't think she did.
No sadly she didn't come over she also doesn't seem to be Aware of the vote for the copyright directive, which is a shame as her case is a text book example of what could happen. But she's promoting seder masochism atm, and that's a copyright protest in action right there.
@onepict this is happening at https://forum.enough.community/t/call-for-participation
Cheers for that. We'll get something in. :)
Also apologies for not submitting a talk. Real life intruded.
@codesections I'm writing a paper on this which will explain this in more detail, but briefly:
1) decentralised doesn't necessarily mean serverless, but very few services *require* central servers. Some work better with servers. There's no single global answer for all applications. I want to build a new and better Internet at the network level - the exact shape of the things built on top of that doesn't concern me so much. That's for application developers to decide.
2) what gets distributed? Everything or nothing. Again, application-specific. Distributed storage is one of the tools we need, but it's not required for every application.
3) It's the communications that are distributed many-to-many. Data can be too, but this is about efficient group communication.
4) Non-ideological? Hmm. That's not a word I'd use here. The safety of parties communicating is a very practical reason. Avoiding death or prison is practical, not ideological. For democracy to function we need the rights of free assembly and association, in rl and on the Internet. We need people to be able to communicate freely without censorship. I see making the world a better place as a very practical, not idelogical thing.
@codesections Security, again, is a practical thing. Trent (trust) is dead. We cannot rely on centralised services like DNS and TLS certification which we know to be compromised.
@codesections And thanks for the questions. I like to be challenged.
I mean, I don't disagree with any of that, but then I share your views. (Tempted to say "I share your ideology", but that might be begging the question a bit).
But I think *many* people view free association and privacy as ideological issues—they have the attitude of "well, so long as I'm not doing anything wrong/don't want to associate with criminals, I've got nothing to worry about". I'm not saying I agree with that view (at all!) but I think it's one we need to overcome
Fosstodon is an English speaking Mastodon instance that is open to anyone who is interested in technology; particularly free & open source software.