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Are you using #github for #FOSS ?
Small request: could you use FOSS instead?
Don't make #Microsoft your gatekeeper, use like #forgejo #codeberg or something.
https://sfconservancy.org/GiveUpGitHub/
Thanks to @conservancy 's @karen , Denver Gingerich and Bradley Kuhn for the #FOSDEM talk.
@conservancy @karen
And my own thought: if your #FOSS project's #chat is on #Discord , I will not join.
I already know it will get enshittified. I will not give them a phone number, I don't want to get tracked and my data sold as a price of contributing to FOSS.
So yeah, I've been mostly absent from the #bevy #community for that reason.
I hope that changes one day.
@dcz @conservancy @karen xmpp is probably the best solution at this point, matrix is garbage and revolt is proprietary, xmpp is the best solution imo
@v0idness @conservancy @karen Personally I've had good experiences with #discourse and #phpbb (that dates me, doesn't it). Also IRC for ephemeral stuff like basic questions. Let's face it, not all history deserves to be saved.
@dcz
if discourse had some kind of anonymous user support or account federation, than it'll be the best solution. i realized that i don't like to register on every fucking forum, when i can just send an email to the thread or smth like that.
@v0idness @conservancy @karen
@dcz @v0idness @conservancy @karen yeah Can +1 for discourse.
This thread is mixing chat platforms and forums though.
Any other should have a forum of some kind, with a chat (discord, matrix, xmpp, irc) being an optional side thing
@thibaultmol @dcz @conservancy @karen i agree, modern chat platforms need to have forums AND 1 on 1 chats
@thibaultmol @v0idness @conservancy @karen The world is mixing chat platforms and forums.
What's Slack? What's Zulip? What's Mattermost?
How are people using Discord? At least Bevy has some long-running threads with long-form posts.
This needs to be acknowledged and the reasons understood, because otherwise it's hard to find a solution that's both good and looks familiar to the people who use the above now.
@v0idness
@dcz @conservancy @karen sadly xmpp has no moderation...
@sandro @dcz @conservancy @karen xmpp doesnt have moderation tools? damn
@v0idness @sandro @conservancy @karen XMPP is less of a place (like a forum), more of a way to exchange messages (like IRC). There is some history support but I don't think that changes the fundamentals of the protocol.
@sandro @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Modern #XMPP clients have message moderation.
I can personally attest that Cheogram, Monocles Chat, Gajim, and Prav have it.
According to https://xmpp.org/software/ so do ConverseJS, Monal, Movim, Poezio, and others.
This XMPP guide makes it easy to find the best of the XMPP world. 
https://contrapunctus.codeberg.page/the-quick-and-easy-guide-to-xmpp.html
@contrapunctus @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Neither do Conversations or Dino, the 2 clients that 95% or so of all my friends use...
@sandro @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen They should switch to Cheogram or Monocles Chat, which are forks of Conversations with many more features and enhancements.
Dino to Gajim can be more of a problem, as the UI differs more than between Conversations and its forks. But again, Gajim is more featureful in all ways (except it doesn't have AV calls yet. Code/donations welcome.)
@contrapunctus
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen How can you convince people to switch to other apps if their pages all read like ... nothing? I bet 5 bucks that someone is going to say Cheogram reads like libpurple (and all the bad associations with it) and that they have a call and messages app and don't need another one. If you know Conversations and read on Monocles page you end up with nothing significant making it worth to switch to some fork.
@contrapunctus
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Most of the features listed are from Conversations itself, which is expected, and the things that are new are so minor and mostly layout related that I couldn't convince anyone to switch based on that.
Also they both don't say anything about moderation or the XEP. Maybe they should start to list the features that make them worthwhile from Conversations?
@contrapunctus
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Also forks are always risky business. If they are abandoned in the future, which is not unlikely if they are only made by one or two persons, then you need to switch all your friends back to not be stuck on unmaintained software.
@contrapunctus
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen And don't get me started on Gajim... My friends will burst in laughs if I suggest that to them. First of all Omemo is (was?) a half maintained plug-in for the longest time and so buggy that you often needed to restart the program to fix its state. I didn't switch away from it because of features or so but because Dino finally worked for the things it did and wasn't buggy as hell.
@sandro @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen The OMEMO plugin has been integrated into Gajim since v1.8.0 (27 May 2023) - no need to install it separately! 
https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/-/raw/master/ChangeLog
My experience has been the opposite, with _Dino_ having more bugs See if Gajim works better for you now.
@sandro @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Here are some major features present in Cheogram and Monocles Chat, and not in Conversations -
long-press to copy URL
message moderation
message retraction
replies (swipe to reply, jump to message, etc)
threads
link preview support
WebXDC support
navigation sidebar (to filter chats)
type @ to enter nicknames, : to enter emojis
shows hats and outcasts in member list
easier way to block users
block a user's avatar
ad hoc commands
1/2
@contrapunctus the 1. is a feature from Conversations. XMPP has threads? What are hats and outcasts?
Edit: Conversations can also disable Avatars.
@sandro My mistake, I've edited my message to clarify. I meant blocking the avatar of a specific user.
Yes, XMPP has threads, but AFAIK only Monocles and Cheogram support it right now.
Hats are bits of arbitrary text you can assign to channel members. Bit like Discord's custom roles.
Outcasts are users who have been banned from a channel.
@contrapunctus IMO there are some features which should just be removed:
- private room messages, just open the DMs to that person
- ability to view and write in a room on only one device
- offline people not being in the member list
@sandro Most rooms in XMPP are "semi-anonymous", so only mods can see membets' JIDs. Good for privacy, but it means you can't just DM someone. That's what MUC PMs are for - to DM a member without knowing their JID.
https://contrapunctus.codeberg.page/the-quick-and-easy-guide-to-xmpp.html#channels-and-group-chats
Re: point 2, I'm not sure I understand what you mean...could you elaborate?
Re: point 3, the community has been working on this. The MIX (Mediated Information eXchange) and GC3 (Group Chat 3) XEPs are both trying to solve this in different ways.
@contrapunctus Bad for UX and about once a week someone writes a DM into the public chat by accident...
You can write into rooms without joining them (bookmarking?). A friend recently took over a week to get this explained to him because no one knew what was going on and we are a XMPP haven.
@sandro @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Monocles Chat also adds -
bottom navigation bar
formatting toolbar
custom backgrounds (both global and per-chat)
correct any message you sent, not just the last one
2/2
@sandro @contrapunctus @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen they might be just unaware of the options as #Conversations has been defacto standard for #xmpp and android for a long time.You can inform your friends that Monocles Chat has moderation support.
Dino situation is a bit harder, but we could fix it by crowd funding. I'd love to do that as part of @prav but we are first focusing on android and ios, but hopefully soon we can focus on GNU/Linux as well.
@sandro @contrapunctus @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen @prav We already raised funds to add custom username support and we are currently testing that feature. We also raised funds to build Prav for iOS and found a developer to implement it. We could eventually add moderation to Dino as well, if no one else get to it by the time we address the other priority items. We decide priority of Prav project through voting among the Prav community.
@praveen
@contrapunctus @v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen @prav Before I get all my friends to switch to another app, I probably meet and have Daniel convinced to implement that feature.
lily 
θΔ ⋐ & ∞ @v0idness@cyberpunk.lol @dcz@fosstodon.org @conservancy@social.sfconservancy.org @karen@floss.social
revolt is proprietaryis it? i thought it was foss
@tauon @karen @conservancy @dcz the backend is (partially) proprietary to my knowledge, they also have a lot of other drama relating to the software which i heavily disapprove of, also the fact that revolt isnt federated and it centralized is another big issue on its own.
@tauon @karen @conservancy @dcz and the proprietary bits of the backend arent included in source code as blobs, its just not present
@tauon@possum.city @v0idness@cyberpunk.lol @dcz@fosstodon.org @conservancy@social.sfconservancy.org @karen@floss.social it's not (though there was a drama a while ago about one official client being proprietary)
@maia @tauon @conservancy @dcz @karen The backend is proprietary
@maia @tauon @conservancy @dcz @karen the proprietary bits arent included in that source code, not even as blobs, the moderation tooling for instance moderators (for people who want to set up their own revolt instance) is fully proprietary and not included.
@maia @tauon @conservancy @dcz @karen the revolt devs told me this themselves on their revolt channel a while ago
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen define garbage
@ity @dcz @conservancy @karen Matrix clients have objectively horrible ui, lack accessibility, the protocol is so disjointed and no clients actually fully support the protocol (even the "official" client, element), the company behind it is greedy and is explicitly pro-cop to an extreme extent
Using matrix is a nightmare and the only good thing about it is the federation, and even then the federation is done so horribly its just a really shitty protocol with shitty clients, not good at all. IRC is better than matrix and IRC is like a bajillion years old, thats saying something.
@v0idness @dcz @conservancy @karen Revolt is proprietary? I thought they were FOSS.
I'm 100% on your side. I've asked about any plans to switch to FOSS alternatives to discord, but nothing is planned so far to not split the community.
However, we could start our own unofficial bevy matrix room. I think there's even one somewhere already 
@_ count me in for a Matrix room!
@dcz @conservancy @karen I miss developers using IRC
@mikebabcock @dcz @conservancy @karen irc has many problems. One of the main ones is no history
@thibaultmol @mikebabcock @conservancy @karen That can also be seen as a benefit. Face to face conversations have no history, either, which opens them up to the ephemeral. You don't have to worry about being too off-topic, polluting the history, or being told off for not reading the backlog.
@dcz @mikebabcock @conservancy @karen I mean... I don't think comparing face to face with a chat is a fair comparison.
I really like chat history.
- it means that, as a newcomer, you can get a vibe for the room and easily look up past conversations
- If you already did a whole explanation of something, you can easily refer back to it.
@thibaultmol i thought its standard irc netiquette to *wait 10 minutes* so youre sure youre not interrupting a conversation, *or* to know the vibes of a room
@thibaultmol @dcz @conservancy @karen if you want history use a wiki or a message board, not a chat room at all. Chat rooms are for live discussion of things that are then written down in a more succinct manner somewhere else.
@mikebabcock @dcz @conservancy @karen not everything makes sense on a wiki.
And also: not every thing that is mentioned on a chat room people will think of putting on a message board. people will forget and it'll be lost to time.
I've this whole discussion multiple times with various people. Chat rooms in 2025 need to have history to be relevant for me and various others agree
@thibaultmol @dcz @conservancy @karen this just sounds a lot like random sophistry at this point instead of valid debate so I'm out.
