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Interesting post about what the next chat app should be like. The author practically describes Matrix, but in the end dismisses Matrix for some reasons at least I find invalid. drewdevault.com/2021/04/07/The

@cos Disagree, I think most of his points regarding Matrix are pretty accurate (certainly in the regard to current server, maybe in the rewrite they are working on maybe it will improve)

@bpepple @cos

Statement regarding server:
"Matrix.org are the only ones who have the knowledge and bandwidth to keep it up and running."

Strongly disagree. Neither did I encounter any issues with the server I use personally nor did my university have any issues that I would know of

@KitKat @cos Why do you suppose Matrix is largely centralized around Martrix.org then?

@bpepple @cos

1. is it really centralized around matrix.org? define "centralized around"
2. Many use it because it is a server that is default in the most popular client and can be counted on
3. Why do you ask me? Any reasoning won't make said things less real

@KitKat @cos
1. Vast majority of user's use it as their instance.
2. I believe you partially answered #1.
3. I asked since your prior answer implied that DeVault's statement about was incorrect, and I'm wonder if that is the case, why are most users centralized on one server?

In additions, last time I looked there were about only 14 (including matrix.org) public servers which seems a bit anemic, especially when compared to Mastodon, which has around 100.

@KitKat @cos One correction, the Matrix number was off the unoffical public server list. The list at publiclist.anchel.nl shows around 30.

@bpepple @KitKat it's true that matrix.org is currently the largest server. Latest number of homeservers is about 60000 and Matrix.org is just one of them. It's recommended NOT to use matrix.org to help decentralize. Registrations on matrix.org will be closed in future but no date has been given.

@cos @KitKat Were are you getting that info? I looked around and couldn't find anything other than public server lists.

@cos @KitKat Interesting, though I would take those with a grain of salt, since I'm well aware how hard it is for organizations to get a remotely accurate count of your users.

@cos @KitKat Sounds like they are still trying to iron out some of the problems with their e2ee implementation. I remember being bit by there key syncing pretty hard back in December.

@bpepple @KitKat yep, those numbers can't be validated externally as they are collected by matrix.org with (optional) reporting feature in Synapse. Matrix HQ, the largest single room I'm in has users from over 2200 servers so 5-number total sounds very plausible.

@bpepple @cos

"1. Vast majority of user's use it as their instance."
Probably wrong given matrix.org stats suggest max a third

"last time I looked there were about only 14 (including matrix.org) public servers which seems a bit anemic"
Didn't know there is a comprehensive list of all public (why only public?) servers

@KitKat @bpepple It's not relevant how many (i believe the number is around 30%) use matrix.org. It could be shut down today and Matrix would continue to work like before. It would only make it more difficult for novice users to pick a homeserver. It's not possible to reliably compile a list of all servers, as there is no central authority that knows them. Listing non-public servers could also cause privacy issues.

@cos @bpepple

You don't need to tell me.
I simply corrected misinformation (vast majority...)

@KitKat @bpepple i was just replying to the thread, not personally. Should it be done some other way in Mastodon?

@cos @bpepple

I think you reply to the toot that you want to reply to

@cos I'm not sure that's Drew at his best, but I'd argue the opposite: I think his points against Matrix are valid (e.g. XMPP implementations fare better in terms of resources and ease of use).

On the other hand, arguments in favor of federation are dubious at best:
* 502 Server Gone error would have been much worse in a federated environment, with the largest instances dying under the load other since we don't yet have viable funding solutions
* federation does not magically solve ethics

@cos what can help a lot with ethical issues is good self-protection tools built in the software and nomadic identity so that you can change servers easily if your previous community becomes toxic, but that does not come automatically with federation (see our issues on Fediverse with no mean to move from Mastodon to Pleroma or other)

@cos I agree with most of his points and espionage agree about the complexity of E2EE and handling keys for users.

One point that I strongly disagree is the part that he says

“This is complicated further by the concerns of a federated design, and if you want to support voice or video chat (please don’t)”

I think voice and video chat are now highly expected by general public that a new protocol/software cannot afford not to have these, or else, it will never get public attention.

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