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marcan on leaving the Asahi project: "No matter how much we did, how many impossible feats we pulled off, people always wanted more. And more."
Yep this is basically ANY open source project. Doesn't matter what you give people, they will always complain about something.
@axboe I do wonder if this is amplified when you're soliciting direct sponsorship for the project. It's easier for the users to feel entitled when they've paid money?
@jani I don't have any experience with donations/patreon/etc, so can't say if that makes it worse or not. But I do know that it's already bad enough when you just give stuff away for free and have never solicited users for any donations. It's just a thankless never ending job with little to no community rewards. That can very quickly suck the fun out of it and remove that initial motivation you had for working on it, which is that it was fun.
@axboe It's just weird. You start a fun project as a hobby for yourself, then you're kind of excited for a while you have a user base > 1, and then all of a sudden you need to start another fun project to enjoy hacking again, and...
@jani It's akin to the "don't make your hobby your job" advice. If you end up not having tons of fun, now you need both a new hobby AND job 
@axboe @jani some years ago we funded some development using crowdfunding. I don't recall any bad behavior in our "funders". They were all supporting, understanding, etc. If anything, they were coming across as less entitled than regular users that, for some, were definitely behaving like you were describing. Overall, it was a pretty positive experience for us.
@axboe It's not just the same as with any other open source project. People actively bought locked-down, undocumented, non-free hardware instead of more FOSS-friendly ARM-based options, decided to not run the operating system they had already paid the manufacturer for (which can actually run a lot of FOSS software), and then on top expected someone else to pay for their own decision.
These people are about three times worse than the usual.
@Sturmflut I’m not saying the project is the same, no two projects are identical. But the mentality is the same, across a ton of disparate projects. There are tons of examples of that.
@Sturmflut @axboe There are no FOSS friendly ARM systems. Some have drivers and run Linux by virtue of Android, sure. But a majority of those were not upstreamed by their actual vendors. They are not supported by their vendors. And certainly in recent years, a lot of that work can be credited to the @postmarketOS team.
So no, there is no effective difference.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-X1E-ThinkPad-T14s-Gen-6
Qualcomm and Lenovo disagree. There are still some open issue, but it's a as far from what Apple is doing as possible.
The Thinkpad X13s has even got an official Linux UEFI boot option.
@axboe what'd s/he expect? given this's the nature of FOSS, what's the good complaining except to indicate unrealistic expectations at the outset
@oscarjiminy that should not be the nature of FOSS, that’s just sad. The nature of FOSS is collaborating, not one/few people producing and the rest doing more complaining or demanding than just being appreciative.
@axboe This is actually one big difference between corporate and hobbyist users. With corporate users we tell them to stop complaining and fund an internal dev team to produce and upstream whatever feature they're asking for (and most of them do nowadays). We've always had trouble with hobbyist users who want a feature but lack the skills to develop it themselves.
The fact that corporate users are way easier to handle in this regard does drive the corporatization of open source.