Web developers:

If your page is nothing but

<noscript>JavaScript is required.</noscript>
<script src="/app.js"></script>

then you have failed.

· · brutaldon · 7 · 54 · 67

@nik Last I checked SSR only handles the initial render on the server side and still required client-side JS for anything to actually work. That doesn't really address my issue.

@alexbuzzbee "for anything to actually work" would at that point mean features that require js to work, no? like at that point you'd have to start cutting features off

@nik Yes. Web applications should be designed to work at least partially without JavaScript. Disabling JavaScript partially or fully is a pretty standard security measure, and some browsers (in particular aural and braille browsers) don't support it at all.

@nik My complaint is strongest with pages like articles, image galleries, comment or forum pages, blog archive listings, etc. that don't even have any interactive features beyond basic hyperlinks and forms.

@alexbuzzbee @nik Also there's the commandline browsers like Lynx...

I'm guessing you're referring to my handiwork when referring to auditory browsers? I'm not seeing any others?

Hmmm a search brought up some interesting results...

@alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

1. stop using JavaScript
2. build real Web Pages
3. learn coding
4. build native Apps
5. stop building fucking WebApps
6. kill JavaScript

@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi there is only one reason why js still exists: people want apps to look fancy which is provided by browsers which currently don't fully support anything but js

I don't think people care that much how things look like. At least in my experience. They care for a good ui of course. But not the endless marketing/user experience the web industry seems to think
@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

@msavoritias @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi users do care. Even back in early 00s you could sell your app (or whatever you sell) better if it looks cute even if it lacks of some features. It's not as important now as it used to be but still matters. I hate this but unfortunately this is how it works

As I said up to a point sure. Not this obsessive over engineer focus of the current industry though. Most of the time when a company does a redesign to modern standards its irritating for the user. I'm talking from experience.
@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

@msavoritias @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi it's different. People hate everything new because it differs from what they are used to. And it doesn't matter how bad it really was. It may be not only design

Depends if its better people actually don't have a problem. At least they can see the benefits. Most of the time though its change for the sake of change. Or because its the new standard for this week.
@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

@unti1x @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi
My main problem is that the a lot of IT these days including designers and ux are out of touch with users. They just seem them as kids to stupid to make decisions. And that goes from the web and web apps to over engineering the design. A lot of stuff would get better if there was more respect for the user and not this antagonist approach. Or looking down on him if you will.

@msavoritias @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi and this is how you get more trackers in your app. If you don't you'll never have the real usage data. Now you have the real data, made everything better and... people still hate you and even more because you changed everything and now you are also spy on them :blobcat:

That is the attitude I was describing. Developers need to educate the users not assume they are stupid and try to eliminate the human aspect with trackers. Analytics in applications don't solve anything a simple bug report with a log attach wouldn't do. Or a button that suggests stuff. We need to mend the relationship between the users and the developers. If we don't you just get the analytics and the fighting in review sections we have now.
@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

@msavoritias @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi this is not what analytics is used for. Of course it won't solve anything what bug report does because it's generally not for bug detection. And unfortunately there always will be damn stupid users ranting in review section

I know you get the very accurate usage analytics. But its not justifiable. The tradeoffs are too much. I agree that some users will always be ignorant but at least they will be less.
@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi

@msavoritias @SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi it doesn't matter if it's really good or not. People'll still hate the new design because it's unfamiliar and different.

But it's more or less fine if it's a completely new app and there was no "old" design.

@SeanGeil @alexbuzzbee @eletrotupi if only there was a way to build native apps for all three major systems without writing separate versions for each

@alexbuzzbee I agree with the spirit of your criticism. More specifically I'd say "if your web thing can work without js it should work without js". Something like jitsi couldn't work without js so I think it's reasonable for it do to something like what you've described.

@zethra @alexbuzzbee Fair criticism, but even then pages typically either say nothing, or they don't elaborate on why they require JavaScript.

Please justify yourself when asking people to enable JavaScript! It's not hard, and if it is you shouldn't be requiring it.

So is tis suggesting we don''t need to use JavaScript?

@alexbuzzbee he posted through time and space from the 80's @isi

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