@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge "their contribution to society" is there a contribution that trans people do to society that non-trans people don't? or is this trying to say something else?

@metalune @huy_ngo I think what it's getting at is they're showing people that trans people do indeed contribute a lot to society even though society can often be against them, that's just how I read it though

@LinuxLounge @huy_ngo oh well, so it's a holiday for people who think that trans people aren't just as human as non-trans people?

@metalune @huy_ngo Not even remotely so, it's a holiday to bring awareness to the discrimination that trans people face as well as their achievements as a community.

If society didn't think that trans people are less human than cis people there would be much less need for days like this.

@LinuxLounge @huy_ngo yeah yeah that's what I'm trying to say, it would be of no use if most people would see trans-people as normal people

@metalune @huy_ngo Ah okay, sorry about that I misunderstood what you said, the holiday does serve the purpose of trying to increase trans acceptance as you said, among other things

@metalune @LinuxLounge Yea, the same goes for pride parades and other celebration of minorities.

> is there a contribution that trans people do to society that non-trans people don't
No, but many people would pretend otherwise. That is, lots of trans-haters and LGBT-haters would insist that they don't deserve rights because they don't contribute to the society.

@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge I seeee, so it's just for people who don't believe that trans-people are normal people?

@spacehorse @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge care to reformulate, read what I said before, reconsider, and then talk to me like a real person and not an automated bot?

@spacehorse @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge well, then fuck off. If you aren't able/don't want to engage in a meaningful conversation, please don't even bother leaving a comment to begin with. Have a nice day.


@metalune The day is important to spacehorse, and you were shitting on it. (I'm not berating you; I just want you to have as much opportunity to learn from your mistakes as I've had.)


@wizzwizz4 yeah, I wasn't trying to shit on it, really, I formulated my initial comments very poorly, I've realized that, that's why I was asking for spacehorse to reformulate so we could resolve a potential misunderstanding.


@metalune No clue how it sounded in your head, but from out here it sounded like you were tone policing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_pol

If you're the one who messed up (as here), the onus is on you to recover from the situation; you shouldn't demand others do so.


@wizzwizz4 The problem is if I don't know what exactly the problem is I can only try to guess how I could resolve it. I noticed that I said it wrong. But I will not apologize to somebody yelling insults at me without caring to elaborate why exactly. (btw, thank you for elaborating further on your views on this, very helpful)


@metalune They didn't start it. You did. (Accidentally, yes, but intent only goes so far over text.)

Instead of saying “care to elaborate?”, perhaps something like:

> I'm not trying to be hurtful. Could you point out what I've said wrong, please? (It's fine if not; I can ask somebody else.)

That's pretty much my go-to in this kind of situation (though I haven't actually got into one since I developed this procedure, so it might still backfire horribly).


@wizzwizz4 uhm.. may I ask what is wrong with "care to elaborate" ?


@metalune It's a low-effort way of applying social pressure for another person to expend significant effort into teaching you. How can they tell you from a troll, to see it's worth the effort, even if they have the capacity to do so? See also: “You Don't Have to Educate Me” (or similar wording).

Making it higher-effort, and reducing the social pressure, makes it kinder. Also, people acting in bad faith rarely do that, so you're more likely to get an answer.


@metalune Also, the thing you said about “meaningful conversation”? That's really dangerous reasoning.

> If you can't articulate your objection in a way I can readily understand, you may not object.

See how little I had to stretch your argument to get to this point? It's *not* what you said, but if you can make a concrete objection to my straw-argument (e.g. “but then how do people know when they're doing something wrong?”), it probably applies to your stance too.


@wizzwizz4 I still don't know what their problem was. All they did was tell me "hey shut the fuck up" I am sorry but what in the fucking fuck am I supposed to do with that? Am I supposed to suck their fucking balls and ask for them to enlighten me. I am sorry but what the fuck is this shit?


@metalune You're *supposed* to leave them alone.

You received an objection. That is valuable feedback. If that's all you got, you could still learn via trial-and-error. From somebody who clearly doesn't *want* to engage with you (even if they're mistaken about you), that's a good-faith gift.

You can always ask me; I will try to help. Then you can try apologising or making up, if you think you need to, preferably without getting to the point of a proper falling-out.


@wizzwizz4 what. the. fuck. but fine, Imma just fuck right off because this is not the kinda group I want to interact with. But this won't be the last time, I'm still hoping to one day be able to talk to a person in a reasonable, constructive way. I'm heading off for the woods.


@metalune I guess you don't realise how *massive* the social faux-pas you committed was. IRL, that's the kind of thing where people would gasp, or leave the room, and your reputation would take a hit, but unless you were aware of the body language and signs, you probably wouldn't know what had happened.

Instead, some people tried to explain why you were wrong, and some others told you off. If you'd been less blunt asking for clarification, there probably would've been zero problems.

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@wizzwizz4 oh my fucking lord this is getting annoying, what the hell happened to "assume people mean well" maybe I'll just take a break from all this. I'm giving somebody the opportunity to explain their problems to me. I'm not gonna run and try to understand their problems by myself, but I am open to let people explain and discuss them with me. If we continue down this path we'll end up just bubblewrapping formulations more and more fearing that they might get it wrong.


@metalune Trolls, TERFs and Nazis happened to “assume people mean well”. On Fedi, people assume you mean well *unless you sound like you're a bad-faith actor*; what you wrote sounded very similar to existing bad-faith rhetoric.

You don't get that kind of reaction otherwise. Learning to recognise it, and how to deal with it, is pretty much The™ social skill you need around here; people forgive all else.

It took me three incidents, plus observing others; I hope it'll take you fewer.


@wizzwizz4 You can see the obvious problem with this tho, right? The problem where we bubblewrap and avoid so many things that it becomes unfeasonably hard to have a real conversation?


@metalune I didn't say “bubble-wrap […] so many things”. I have only ever needed to go into “tiptoes” mode in *this specific kind of situation*; everywhere else, I can just say whatever with flagrant disregard for social rules.

You need to put effort in when this happens, to distinguish yourself from the bad-faith actors. Consider it a CAPTCHA, if that helps, and remember that (if I'm online) you can always ask me for help.


@wizzwizz4 @metalune Not related to this specific discussion, but I disagree with your stance.

If you put an opinion, you have to be ready to defend it. You have to be ready to get attacked and you have to be ready to explain it.

It is not ok, to attack an opinion, but the one responsible for not letting the escalation happen is the one putting the opinion. (Because you can't steer n possible reply-ers to keep calm, but you can steer 1 opinion holder.)


@tobtobxx @metalune Okay, think of it this way.

Four hundred people over the last month have had pretty much the same bad take, which feels like an attack on what you hold dear. It hurts to see it, every time. How *should* you react?


@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx either you shouldn't. or you should be able to defend your stance. There is nobody forcing you to react here, it's a public forum, anybody can reply if they want, or not reply if they don't.


@metalune @wizzwizz4 Yeah, I can go behind that.

It's sort of like what I did with the RMS discussions. I don't have a strong opinion. If you ask my gut, I'm slightly in favor of him returning, but because I don't want to argue with anyone about this topic (I'm malinformed and I don't have a personal affection), I just never said anything.

Keep around the people that care for your rights and opinions, if this is important to you. Mute the others.


@metalune @tobtobxx Okay, and then there are 500 people sharing that bad take the next month.

And that bad take is adjacent to the bad take that's leading to people passing laws to make it illegal for you to get medical treatment.

And thanks in part to that, you don't have the mental capacity to give a detailed rebuttal to even one – you're choosing between *that*, and having any kind of enjoyable downtime today.


@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx then tell me: how is "hey shut the fuck up" going to stop the 500 people. Ever heard of "it doesn't help to silence somebody, you gotta prove them wrong publicly"

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@wizzwizz4 @metalune The basis of a fair democracy is reason. Now I agree that many lost it. And this in fact does make the actions you described sometimes more effective than the calm way. But is it the right one?

I would be more in favor of a civil discussion, even if it doesn't get the masses.

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@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge alright. let me explain. like @wizzwizz4 already pointed it in a way, this was not to be transphobic, or to diss trans people, I am trying to point out how crazy the fact is that we even need to celebrate it is. the fact that it isn't something that is there by default. Have a nice day anybody.

@metalune It seems like yet another made up holiday to sell people stuff.

@person @metalune Only one thing to say, I am a person of equality in mind. If your a douchebag who is trans,black or a religious minority for that matter, I don't give af. I will be a jerk to you. Id your a good guy and just want to chill around,have a cup of coffee. We could be homies even. My only requirement: Don't be a snitch and don't be a douché.

@metalune @person Well people want a sense of superiority and they adress these people as outcasts in which they can show superiority. Its human cruelty which has to be removed from the core.

@XxAlexXx @person oh yeah I like that sense of superiority as well from time to time but I like playing it on a higher playing field than just your fucking body.

@metalune @person Well not everyone is like you. And body shaming is like a sense of superiourity. I have no clue why but it is what it is

@person @metalune I'd like to think you're just too lazy to have looked this up on Wikipedia because the alternative is that you're intentionally being transphobic.

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